A kind of pesh kabz, opinion and translation please

Ren Ren · 15th July 2022, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

How time flies! A similar knife was sold at the Imperial auction in 2010 with the attribution "knife of the Crimean Tatars". The owner offered to discuss it in one of the Russian forums. It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

Most of the participants - but by no means all! - came to the conclusion that this is a knife from Afghanistan.

gp · 15th July 2022, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

and no one said "dawaj, dawaj...pashli, pashli tovarischi..."? :-)))

rough translation: hurry up, dear friends...

must have been very interesting...specially to learn about the pro and cons about it
Also makes me think or sounds like our "change of minds " in this forum are quite short and simple.

Nevertheless I think it is a beautiful piece / ochen krasivo ! Love the 2nd picture !

Ren Ren · 15th July 2022, 10:33 PM

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

ariel · 16th July 2022, 12:35 AM

Ren Ren,
Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-)))

As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.

Saracen · 16th July 2022, 02:51 AM

In that discussion, we came to the conclusion that this formerly Persian perforation with a red background is characteristic of later Afghan weapons. Often this perforation is simply filled with red paste on Afghan weapons. Also features of the blade, which are also for Afghanistan. Yes, it's nice to remember).By the way, the scabbard in the message No. 17 is also Afghan. We didn't have a scabbard in that discussion.

Ian · 16th July 2022, 04:53 AM

Very productive discussion about these knives. With large numbers of "armor-piercing" tipped knives coming our of Rajahstan, mainly Jaipur, these days, it's good to have some historical perspective for the forerunners of these styles. While I understand many of these knives are being made or assembled in Jaipur for final distribution, it is also my understanding that similar knives are produced in Pakistan. Can you gentlemen inform us of what is happening currently and how to identify the more recently made versions?

ariel · 16th July 2022, 06:16 AM

Double

ariel · 16th July 2022, 06:18 AM

My guess based on seeing multiple examples of modern tourist Indian or Afghani daggers on e-bay have several easily noticeable features: general appearance of the blade is very impractical; decorations are produced by methods not requiring hard work ( deep etching is very popular); armor-piercing tip is puny and obviously weak. Post #7 is a classic example.

I am sure other Forumites have their own sets of features permitting quick attribution as modern touristy fake.

Old armor-piercers all without exception are Zirah Bouks by definition, swords and daggers. Human anatomy is such , that penetration of it by 3-4 “ in almost any place reaches a vital organ.

gp · 16th July 2022, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

so you were young lads "fighting" skirmishes like Georgy Konstantinovich at Khalkhin Gol ?

ariel · 17th July 2022, 05:43 AM

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))
Our arguments were, as Pushkin used to say, " senseless and pitiless". Ren Ren is right: we were just too young and full of piss and vinegar.

Saracen,
Hope you noticed remnants of some "red stuff" in the pierced areas of the Afghan/Tatar dagger.
I just do not want to go through the same heated discussions again. Too old for that.

gp · 17th July 2022, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))

that's why I referred to Georgy Konstantinovich ; Георгий Константинович Жуков never was the kindergarten type ....as confirmed by Ike / Eisenhower

and "Khalkhin Gol "was far from a skirmish ☺☺☺

mahratt · 17th July 2022, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

that's why I referred to Georgy Konstantinovich ; Георгий Константинович Жуков never was the kindergarten type ....as confirmed by Ike / Eisenhower

and "Khalkhin Gol "was far from a skirmish ☺☺☺

You are absolutely right

But it was not even "fighting" skirmishes of Khalkhin Gol. It was more like "Battle of Stalingrad"

By the way, despite our current disagreements, in that "battle" I was "in the same trench" with аriel

16th July 2022, 06:18 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My guess based on seeing multiple examples of modern tourist Indian or Afghani daggers on e-bay have several easily noticeable features: general appearance of the blade is very impractical; decorations are produced by methods not requiring hard work ( deep etching is very popular); armor-piercing tip is puny and obviously weak. Post #7 is a classic example. I am sure other Forumites have their own sets of features permitting quick attribution as modern touristy fake. Old armor-piercers all without exception are Zirah Bouks by definition, swords and daggers. Human anatomy is such , that penetration of it by 3-4 “ in almost any place reaches a vital organ. Last edited by ariel; 16th July 2022 at 07:16 AM.

15th July 2022, 10:33 PM	#3
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

16th July 2022, 12:35 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ren Ren, Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-))) As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.

16th July 2022, 02:51 AM	#5
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	In that discussion, we came to the conclusion that this formerly Persian perforation with a red background is characteristic of later Afghan weapons. Often this perforation is simply filled with red paste on Afghan weapons. Also features of the blade, which are also for Afghanistan. Yes, it's nice to remember).By the way, the scabbard in the message No. 17 is also Afghan. We didn't have a scabbard in that discussion.

16th July 2022, 04:53 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Very productive discussion about these knives. With large numbers of "armor-piercing" tipped knives coming our of Rajahstan, mainly Jaipur, these days, it's good to have some historical perspective for the forerunners of these styles. While I understand many of these knives are being made or assembled in Jaipur for final distribution, it is also my understanding that similar knives are produced in Pakistan. Can you gentlemen inform us of what is happening currently and how to identify the more recently made versions?

16th July 2022, 06:16 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Double Last edited by ariel; 16th July 2022 at 06:38 AM.

17th July 2022, 05:43 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-)))) Our arguments were, as Pushkin used to say, " senseless and pitiless". Ren Ren is right: we were just too young and full of piss and vinegar. Saracen, Hope you noticed remnants of some "red stuff" in the pierced areas of the Afghan/Tatar dagger. I just do not want to go through the same heated discussions again. Too old for that.