A cup hilt sword for coments

A Senefelder · 23rd March 2010, 06:31 PM

This is what I had thought a Bilbo is.

I believe this is what Mark mentions. Theres one on the Cover of Swords and Hilt Weapons.

Jim McDougall · 23rd March 2010, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

This is what I had thought a Bilbo is.

I believe this is what Mark mentions. Theres one on the Cover of Swords and Hilt Weapons.

Exactly Alan, this is the military sword to which the term became associated by mostly collectors as mentioned in about the 19th century. It seems that in the preceding centuries the term was more broadly applied. Thank you for the link.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 23rd March 2010, 09:09 PM

Hi Jim, thanks a lot for getting in with such vast considerations.
Concerning the localization of the guarda polvo (guarda pó) and the rompe puntas (quebra pontas) i also wish i could come to an efective conclusion.
However the first step for me would be to define whether these devices were used more by civilians than by military, or in an indescriminate manner.
At first sight the dust keeper appears to me an added value optional. You know that this piece, so often perforated with luxury decorations, had the purpose to fix the cup (bowl) interior lining, a textile (velvet) or leather material. One could speculate that this would be for the wealthy or noble owner ... military or civilian, both being the same individual at this period.
The point breaker would, in my fantasy, be a fencing resource (of doubtful efectiveness), more appointed to the street fighting than to campaingn battling.
But of course all such considerandums without solid evidence ... so far.
On the other hand, maybe your reasoning is correct in that these two details didn't reach the colonies ... at least massively.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 23rd March 2010, 10:58 PM

Hi Fernando,
Its my pleasure to see a great discussion going on, as you noted, one of my favorite sword forms. I think you have really placed a very astute observation on these cuphilt features, the guardopolvo and the rompepuntas. It makes very good sense that these somewhat cosmetic and questionably effective features would likely be embellishments in the civilian versions of these swords. It seems rather by extension of tradition that the beloved cuphilt was kept on the heavier bladed military swords, and that the more finished appearance added by the rompepuntas would have been more of a vestigial application.
I believe the idea of its function as a blade catcher falls very much into the category of the left hand 'sword catcher' and notches in blades to foul the opposing blade.

The colonial versions of these cuphilts seem to have been very much 'working versions' of these traditionally revered swords, and there are many examples of swords patterned after the swords of the gentry and nobility. The espada ancha itself is a frontier version of the hunting hangers of 17th century Europe fashioned originally for use by hidalgos in New Spain. The later became mounted with heavier blades for use in the thick vegetation of the desert regions as well as secondary weapons of the presidial soldiers.

Personally these rugged frontier swords hold a distinct charm as functional weapons carrying vestigially the traditional elements and style of thier elegant ancestors.

All best regards,
Jim

23rd March 2010, 06:31 PM	#1
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	This is what I had thought a Bilbo is. I believe this is what Mark mentions. Theres one on the Cover of Swords and Hilt Weapons.

23rd March 2010, 09:09 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, thanks a lot for getting in with such vast considerations. Concerning the localization of the guarda polvo (guarda pó) and the rompe puntas (quebra pontas) i also wish i could come to an efective conclusion. However the first step for me would be to define whether these devices were used more by civilians than by military, or in an indescriminate manner. At first sight the dust keeper appears to me an added value optional. You know that this piece, so often perforated with luxury decorations, had the purpose to fix the cup (bowl) interior lining, a textile (velvet) or leather material. One could speculate that this would be for the wealthy or noble owner ... military or civilian, both being the same individual at this period. The point breaker would, in my fantasy, be a fencing resource (of doubtful efectiveness), more appointed to the street fighting than to campaingn battling. But of course all such considerandums without solid evidence ... so far. On the other hand, maybe your reasoning is correct in that these two details didn't reach the colonies ... at least massively. Fernando

23rd March 2010, 10:58 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Fernando, Its my pleasure to see a great discussion going on, as you noted, one of my favorite sword forms. I think you have really placed a very astute observation on these cuphilt features, the guardopolvo and the rompepuntas. It makes very good sense that these somewhat cosmetic and questionably effective features would likely be embellishments in the civilian versions of these swords. It seems rather by extension of tradition that the beloved cuphilt was kept on the heavier bladed military swords, and that the more finished appearance added by the rompepuntas would have been more of a vestigial application. I believe the idea of its function as a blade catcher falls very much into the category of the left hand 'sword catcher' and notches in blades to foul the opposing blade. The colonial versions of these cuphilts seem to have been very much 'working versions' of these traditionally revered swords, and there are many examples of swords patterned after the swords of the gentry and nobility. The espada ancha itself is a frontier version of the hunting hangers of 17th century Europe fashioned originally for use by hidalgos in New Spain. The later became mounted with heavier blades for use in the thick vegetation of the desert regions as well as secondary weapons of the presidial soldiers. Personally these rugged frontier swords hold a distinct charm as functional weapons carrying vestigially the traditional elements and style of thier elegant ancestors. All best regards, Jim