A cup hilt sword for coments

celtan · 20th March 2010, 03:05 PM

Hi 'Nando,

This is what is adroitly called in America a "Bilbo" (from Bilbao, Euzkadi/Vasconia). An economical, tough and no-nonsense weapon that was used and exported everywhere, but was to characterize the Spanish Caribbean of the mid-17th C. Some were still around as recent as the early 19th C. In fact, this popular type was made all around Iberia, not only in the Basque country.

Regarding the "espadeiro", it well might be that he was of that demi-god race of supermen also known as gallegos, known for their fighting prowess, sword-smithing, and as makers of the Ambrosia elixis (aka Albariño).

I don't think the beautiful grip goes hand-in-hand with the rest of such an utilitarian weapon. Possibly, it was added after-market, or as repair to the original wood handle?

Best regards

Manuel

M ELEY · 21st March 2010, 01:44 AM

Very nice 'utilitarian' piece, Fernando. Looking at it makes me think "pirate"- If you ever decide to part with it...

Mark

fernando · 21st March 2010, 03:46 PM

Hi Mark,

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Very nice 'utilitarian' piece, Fernando. Looking at it makes me think "pirate"- If you ever decide to part with it...

Mark

Thanks for the compliment.
Well, you know, 'cup' hilt swords are really my 'cup' of tea

.
Hardly to be parted with.
But i will register you as first candidate

Fernando

M ELEY · 22nd March 2010, 11:45 AM

Yes, a wonderful piece. I understand from speaking to Manolo on other posts the differences in opinion between the Old World "true" (??) cup-hilts and those post-1700 pieces sometimes referred to as bilbos. Where my confusion comes in is that this piece does appear to have the ridged over-lap to the bowl. Isn't this typically found on Spanish pieces vs those found over here? I remember discussing this on a past thread, but I could be wrong. I guess one could surmise that parts in the Old World made it to the west, as did occur, but I would have trouble believing this piece to be a put-together, like some primitive espada. Perhaps I need the definition on a 'bilbo' one more time so I can understand it. Is it based solely on time period, form/construction, or locale that it was used in????

celtan · 22nd March 2010, 02:03 PM

Howdy guys,

"Bilbo" is an English catch-all word used to very generally refer to the Spanish "Utilitarian" cup-hilt swords, so often found all over America. They usually had a wide, _relatively_ short sturdy and well tempered blades, very practical and unadorned. The grip was more often than not wood, sometimes covered with wire.

The term comes from the Spanish Basque city of Bilbao, where a significant number of them were made and exported to the New World. In Basque that name is actually "Bilbo", although there's also a basque town by that name. I understand these swords were also sold to merchants of every european nation, including England.

The type was very popular aboard ships, where it was used on a similar role as the cutlass was among other nations. Needless to say, this sword was also used in Europe, but curiously, seem to have survived better in America. Probably because in the colonies these were better taken care of, since they were more difficult to acquire, and thus more valuable.

"Bilbo" if often misused by neophytes to refer to *any* spanish sword.

And Nando, I'm just goading you. : ) I'm certain this sword is not gallega, nor made by a galician Vulcano. It has to be portuguesa, and a fine sample it is.

I seldom drink, but I'll be looking forward to try a Alvarinho portugues. Since you claim is as good as the galician ambrosia (Ambrosia La Gallega "), then it surely must be el nectar de los dioses.

The term used today in Spain for this type of hilt is, IIRC, "Taza". Although, as a kid they were rather called "Toledanas" amd "Estoques".

Galicia was famous for ax-making and the antenna-swords the romans eventually adopted as the Gladius, but I don't know of any renowned Galician espadeiro, in fact, the term is currently used to refer to fishermen, of all things!

Mike, the ring you mention is called a rompe-puntas, a (blade) point-breaker.

Best regards to y'all

: )

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes, a wonderful piece. I understand from speaking to Manolo on other posts the differences in opinion between the Old World "true" (??) cup-hilts and those post-1700 pieces sometimes referred to as bilbos. Where my confusion comes in is that this piece does appear to have the ridged over-lap to the bowl. Isn't this typically found on Spanish pieces vs those found over here? I remember discussing this on a past thread, but I could be wrong. I guess one could surmise that parts in the Old World made it to the west, as did occur, but I would have trouble believing this piece to be a put-together, like some primitive espada. Perhaps I need the definition on a 'bilbo' one more time so I can understand it. Is it based solely on time period, form/construction, or locale that it was used in????

fernando · 22nd March 2010, 06:07 PM

Amazing !
I would swear that the Bilbo was a determined type of hilt, and not a generic term.
If you ever decide to test/taste portuguese alvarinho, try Palacio da Brejoeira; maybe this is the more expensive one, but it is definitely the best... well, not counting with those home made private harvests that eventually we come across with.
We also have the term espadeiro here, to refer to fishermen of peixe-espada (sword-fish).
The rompe-puntas (quebra pontas here) is also found in portuguese bowl cup hilt swords. Let's call it a peninsular characteristic ... until i (we)find some reading about its specific origin, local and date
Concerning perservation of these swords until later dates, also in Portugal they survived for a long period, having actually become emblematic. They kept being made until the XVIII century and their utility lasted long as the begining of the XIX century, due to absence of a better resource, by the population, during the various conflicts and civil wars.
I wonder why Jim doesn't come around; knowing that he is also a cuphilt lover

Fernando

.

Marc · 23rd March 2010, 12:41 PM

Well, that's a typical question of nomenclature. Without a standard, each community ends up developing its own terminology.
So, to the question "what is a Bilbo?", the answer would be "Well, it depends who you ask", as it's already being seen here

.
The sword posted by Fernando wouldn't never be classified as a "Bilbo" by a knowledgeable Spanish collector (nor as "colonial", either, by the way). In Spain this kind of swords, which are indeed considered as belonging to the same "family" as the ones posted by Manuel (Celtan), are known, generically, as "Tazas a la Portuguesa", or "Portuguese cup-hilts", with a chronology that, as Fernando said, spans from the end of the 17th c. to the beginning of the 19th, featuring a wide variety of blades -usually quite sturdy cutters-, many of them with German marks and inscriptions in Portuguese or related to Portuguese subjects. Distinctive -read "usual", you know how this goes- features are the thick, solid cups, frequently featuring the "rompepuntas" or "point-breaker", short sturdy quilllions with pear-shaped finials and frequently soldered to the cup itself, lack of inner finger-rings ("pas d'ane" you call them), and the pear-shaped pommel, usually faceted, and with the knuckle-guard attached to it with a screw.
The grip is usually of bare wood, barrel-shaped and with horizontal decorative carved lines (that one in in Manuel's first pictures would be an archetypical example), but I've seen many variations. I don't think the brass one in Fernando's exemplar is out of place in any way.
In Spain, the label "Bilbo" for swords is taken as a loan word from Anglo-saxon collectors and referred normally to swords with hilts featuring bilobulated shells, be them 17th c. rapiers or 18th c. Spanish Cavalry Swords. You may find them in dealer's descriptions meant for international audiences, in fact, but the term is kind of catching in the collectors community.
As I said, all of this is not about anyone being right or wrong, but about how sometimes things we give for granted may not be so when dealing with the international community. You wouldn't believe the amount of discussions I have had about what can be considered a rapier and what not, which invariably end up dealing with what *each of us* feels comfortable calling a rapier...

fernando · 21st March 2010, 03:42 PM

Hi Manel (à la Portuguese

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi 'Nando,
This is what is adroitly called in America a "Bilbo" (from Bilbao, Euzkadi/Vasconia). An economical, tough and no-nonsense weapon that was used and exported everywhere, but was to characterize the Spanish Caribbean of the mid-17th C. Some were still around as recent as the early 19th C. In fact, this popular type was made all around Iberia, not only in the Basque country.

This? A Bilbo sword? You drive me into some confusion

.
Aren't Bilbo hilts another thing? What's the connection between Bilbos and Cup hilts... or de Taza in Castillian ... or de copos de Tigela in Portuguese?
I guess i find the attribution you mention 'unadroit'

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Regarding the "espadeiro", it well might be that he was of that demi-god race of supermen also known as gallegos, known for their fighting prowess, sword-smithing ...

I wouldn't think so. Not that you aren't demi-gods; that, i am sure of

. I mean about the blade being Gallega; well, you never know

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... and as makers of the Ambrosia elixis (aka Albariño).

Wait a minute; the Alvarinho from my side doesn't stay behind !
By the way, how do Gallegos call these hilts? taza (cup) or tigela/tijola (bowl)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

I don't think the beautiful grip goes hand-in-hand with the rest of such an utilitarian weapon. Possibly, it was added after-market, or as repair to the original wood handle? ...

I am with you on this one.
But given its patina and pommel screw condition, this must have taken place long long ago.

Porta-te bem.

Fernando

22nd March 2010, 06:07 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Amazing ! I would swear that the Bilbo was a determined type of hilt, and not a generic term. If you ever decide to test/taste portuguese alvarinho, try Palacio da Brejoeira; maybe this is the more expensive one, but it is definitely the best... well, not counting with those home made private harvests that eventually we come across with. We also have the term espadeiro here, to refer to fishermen of peixe-espada (sword-fish). The rompe-puntas (quebra pontas here) is also found in portuguese bowl cup hilt swords. Let's call it a peninsular characteristic ... until i (we)find some reading about its specific origin, local and date Concerning perservation of these swords until later dates, also in Portugal they survived for a long period, having actually become emblematic. They kept being made until the XVIII century and their utility lasted long as the begining of the XIX century, due to absence of a better resource, by the population, during the various conflicts and civil wars. I wonder why Jim doesn't come around; knowing that he is also a cuphilt lover Fernando . Attached Images

23rd March 2010, 12:41 PM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, that's a typical question of nomenclature. Without a standard, each community ends up developing its own terminology. So, to the question "what is a Bilbo?", the answer would be "Well, it depends who you ask", as it's already being seen here . The sword posted by Fernando wouldn't never be classified as a "Bilbo" by a knowledgeable Spanish collector (nor as "colonial", either, by the way). In Spain this kind of swords, which are indeed considered as belonging to the same "family" as the ones posted by Manuel (Celtan), are known, generically, as "Tazas a la Portuguesa", or "Portuguese cup-hilts", with a chronology that, as Fernando said, spans from the end of the 17th c. to the beginning of the 19th, featuring a wide variety of blades -usually quite sturdy cutters-, many of them with German marks and inscriptions in Portuguese or related to Portuguese subjects. Distinctive -read "usual", you know how this goes- features are the thick, solid cups, frequently featuring the "rompepuntas" or "point-breaker", short sturdy quilllions with pear-shaped finials and frequently soldered to the cup itself, lack of inner finger-rings ("pas d'ane" you call them), and the pear-shaped pommel, usually faceted, and with the knuckle-guard attached to it with a screw. The grip is usually of bare wood, barrel-shaped and with horizontal decorative carved lines (that one in in Manuel's first pictures would be an archetypical example), but I've seen many variations. I don't think the brass one in Fernando's exemplar is out of place in any way. In Spain, the label "Bilbo" for swords is taken as a loan word from Anglo-saxon collectors and referred normally to swords with hilts featuring bilobulated shells, be them 17th c. rapiers or 18th c. Spanish Cavalry Swords. You may find them in dealer's descriptions meant for international audiences, in fact, but the term is kind of catching in the collectors community. As I said, all of this is not about anyone being right or wrong, but about how sometimes things we give for granted may not be so when dealing with the international community. You wouldn't believe the amount of discussions I have had about what can be considered a rapier and what not, which invariably end up dealing with what each of us feels comfortable calling a rapier... Last edited by Marc; 23rd March 2010 at 03:19 PM.

20th March 2010, 03:05 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi 'Nando, This is what is adroitly called in America a "Bilbo" (from Bilbao, Euzkadi/Vasconia). An economical, tough and no-nonsense weapon that was used and exported everywhere, but was to characterize the Spanish Caribbean of the mid-17th C. Some were still around as recent as the early 19th C. In fact, this popular type was made all around Iberia, not only in the Basque country. Regarding the "espadeiro", it well might be that he was of that demi-god race of supermen also known as gallegos, known for their fighting prowess, sword-smithing, and as makers of the Ambrosia elixis (aka Albariño). I don't think the beautiful grip goes hand-in-hand with the rest of such an utilitarian weapon. Possibly, it was added after-market, or as repair to the original wood handle? Best regards Manuel

21st March 2010, 01:44 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Very nice 'utilitarian' piece, Fernando. Looking at it makes me think "pirate"- If you ever decide to part with it... Mark

22nd March 2010, 11:45 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Yes, a wonderful piece. I understand from speaking to Manolo on other posts the differences in opinion between the Old World "true" (??) cup-hilts and those post-1700 pieces sometimes referred to as bilbos. Where my confusion comes in is that this piece does appear to have the ridged over-lap to the bowl. Isn't this typically found on Spanish pieces vs those found over here? I remember discussing this on a past thread, but I could be wrong. I guess one could surmise that parts in the Old World made it to the west, as did occur, but I would have trouble believing this piece to be a put-together, like some primitive espada. Perhaps I need the definition on a 'bilbo' one more time so I can understand it. Is it based solely on time period, form/construction, or locale that it was used in????