Translation needed on Kilij koftgari

M.carter · 28th May 2005, 05:09 PM

Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah"

"Muhammad is the messenger of God"

erlikhan · 29th May 2005, 12:04 AM

I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you.
regards

Andrew · 29th May 2005, 06:06 AM

Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

M.carter · 29th May 2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

This sign was fairly common with the Ottomans, seen on buildings, weaponry and many more places. I do not know what it meant for them though.

derek · 29th May 2005, 06:42 PM

Solomon is an important figure in Islam. He was regarded for his wisdom, poetry, understanding the language of birds, and for commanding genii (demons).

-d

derek · 29th May 2005, 06:45 PM

Ah,

Just made the connection to the Ottomans. Suleyman the Just 1520-1560 was regarded as the "second Solomon", who was regarded as a perfect king.

-d

Rivkin · 29th May 2005, 06:57 PM

Well... My grandmother's clan is turkish-tatar (Bucharin). First appears in books in 1495 ad, however on their tamga (coat of arms) they had a star of david. As far as I remember according to Baskakov it was supposed to symbolize that they descended from jewish turks (khazars) and therefore already existed as a clan around V-IXth centuries.

There are in total 29 clan that are attributed to be "khazar" clans, all with the six point star in their tamgas.

However this theory, like all "jewish" theories on why is this symbol appears here and there need to be weighted against another fact - as a "seal of Solomon" hexagram was in extremely wide use, by mystics of all religions, and even not only by mystics, for example in Islam:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...playMode=print

or in Christianity:
http://www.nork.ru/burg/seal.html

So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected).

On the other hand sometimes even through the most simple explanation would be to interpret is as an "islamic symbol", it's actually "jewish" - mints of Seymur, or Georgian/Armenian/Ethiopean (in the latter case - more based on mythology than on facts) kings symolizing their jewish descent (while in case of Tbilisi mint on the surface it appears as if they are merely copying late Abbasid's coins) or even later minted coins in typical islamic countries, sometimes actually are "jewish" in origin.

erlikhan · 30th May 2005, 05:52 PM

I am not an expert, what I guess is, some symbols are common in all Semitic religions. Hexagram was not a direct Islamic religious symbol, but some magical,talismanic meanings were loaded to it, and used to bring some kind of good luck. Solomon is accepted holy in Islam too, but what I dont remember is, was he said to be capable of making magics?
This is the picture of 16th c. Turkish pirate-admiral Barbaros Hayrettin's banner. Very interesting,you can see hexagram together with another symbol right over it. Masonic compasses? Can easily be speculated like that but not. Ali's sword Zulfikar, with 16th c. hilt. Why is it stylized so? I dont know . Perhaps cause compasses are important in navigation?

Yannis · 31st May 2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected).

Actually among other symbolism it was one of the alchemist symbols of middle ages. It means the unity of fire and water. Fire was a triangle pointing upwards and water a triangle pointing down.

As we know alchemy and bladesmithing were very close for hundrend years. Still they are, if we think chemistry as modern alchemy

30th May 2005, 05:52 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I am not an expert, what I guess is, some symbols are common in all Semitic religions. Hexagram was not a direct Islamic religious symbol, but some magical,talismanic meanings were loaded to it, and used to bring some kind of good luck. Solomon is accepted holy in Islam too, but what I dont remember is, was he said to be capable of making magics? This is the picture of 16th c. Turkish pirate-admiral Barbaros Hayrettin's banner. Very interesting,you can see hexagram together with another symbol right over it. Masonic compasses? Can easily be speculated like that but not. Ali's sword Zulfikar, with 16th c. hilt. Why is it stylized so? I dont know . Perhaps cause compasses are important in navigation? Attached Images

28th May 2005, 05:09 PM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah" "Muhammad is the messenger of God"

29th May 2005, 12:04 AM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you. regards

29th May 2005, 06:06 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

29th May 2005, 06:42 PM	#5
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Solomon is an important figure in Islam. He was regarded for his wisdom, poetry, understanding the language of birds, and for commanding genii (demons). -d

29th May 2005, 06:45 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Ah, Just made the connection to the Ottomans. Suleyman the Just 1520-1560 was regarded as the "second Solomon", who was regarded as a perfect king. -d

29th May 2005, 06:57 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well... My grandmother's clan is turkish-tatar (Bucharin). First appears in books in 1495 ad, however on their tamga (coat of arms) they had a star of david. As far as I remember according to Baskakov it was supposed to symbolize that they descended from jewish turks (khazars) and therefore already existed as a clan around V-IXth centuries. There are in total 29 clan that are attributed to be "khazar" clans, all with the six point star in their tamgas. However this theory, like all "jewish" theories on why is this symbol appears here and there need to be weighted against another fact - as a "seal of Solomon" hexagram was in extremely wide use, by mystics of all religions, and even not only by mystics, for example in Islam: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...playMode=print or in Christianity: http://www.nork.ru/burg/seal.html So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected). On the other hand sometimes even through the most simple explanation would be to interpret is as an "islamic symbol", it's actually "jewish" - mints of Seymur, or Georgian/Armenian/Ethiopean (in the latter case - more based on mythology than on facts) kings symolizing their jewish descent (while in case of Tbilisi mint on the surface it appears as if they are merely copying late Abbasid's coins) or even later minted coins in typical islamic countries, sometimes actually are "jewish" in origin.