Malay (?) keris from Ebay

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade.

A lot of Malay keris sundang come with what seems to be a genuine Moro blade. Obviously, there was a lot of trade going on. Some of these could also have been crafted in centers with strong Moro influence like Brunei.

Some Malay sundang come with locally forged blades though since they appear to be outside the traditions of any Moro group. (Stylistically, Moro kris seem to be somewhat less cohesive than most keris. I'd posit that "pakem" were less of an issue than at Indonesian courts.)

In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay

I'll try to have a look later.

This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat".

Probably left behind before an organized battle rather than discarded but obviously the colonial soldiers mainly cared for the swords and often weren't in a position to search for any missing bits at leisure, anyway. There also appear to be simple makeshift scabbards for taking a kris on a campaign while leaving the valuable original scabbard at home.

Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years?

There are quite a few antique scabbards for both Moro and Malay sundang around but obviously, as in other keris, later replacements are common. There is a larger proportion of sundang than regular keris coming without scabbards and most of this can probably be attributed to the huge amount of battlefield pickups during the early US colonial period (throw in some European colonial trophies, too).

OTOH, a noticeable percentage of pieces in foreign collections does come from later trade (and raids) and includes a genuine scabbard. Since many but status pieces come with fairly undecorated scabbards, we also have to account for later losses due to displays of "naked" swords.

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth).

(I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.)

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by Gustav

A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth).

(I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.)

Yup... this one is certainly northern peninsula, but your earlier example was recent though no body can really be sure its so called maduran's origin....

[Gustav]

Oncemore; if the blade is in good state of preservation, it is hardly possible to see the age, and this is the case regarding some keris from older collections in Europe and USA.

I think, everybody here is able to have and write down he's opinion. This is a discussion forum. Very probably the most experienced person in case of keris from Peninsula, who has give an opinion here, is DAHenkel. His oppinion was, the kris is from 40 or 50-ties, a Peninsula blade (post #7).

Well, the keris finally arrived. Both hilt and buntut have a fine patina, which stays absolutely hidden if you try to pfotograph it. The wood of the sheath is old, has a beautiful grain, old is also the horn collar. In my oppinion, when I see this keris in my hand, there are no new or recent parts in this ensemble.

The photographs from the seller are very good indeed, so only the missing view - the mouth of the sheath.

Thank you all very much.

[Sajen]

See I correct that the horn collar is set in up of the sheat and enfolded the wood? So the blade sitting in the wood?

[Gustav]

Yes, it's wright.

[A. G. Maisey]

In my post #6 I said this:-

As always when looking at pics, I could be wrong --- but overall I don't think I am.


These most recent images posted by Gustav provide an entirely different perspective.

What I have said in previous posts is incorrect.

I was wrong.

I think this underlines what I have frequently said, that it is very difficult to appraise a keris from photographs, especially photographs on a computer screen.

It also underlines just how important it is to see the top of the ganja.

I no longer believe that this keris was made in Madura, but there are most definitely elements of Madura craftsmanship inherrent in this blade. How they got there is anybody's guess.