Translation needed on Kilij koftgari

M.carter · 28th May 2005, 12:59 PM

Hi Erlikhan,

In the first pic you posted, from top:

"There is only one god"

"There is no man better than Ali, and no sword better than Thulfiqar"

The third cartouche, I need a closer pic.

On the other side of the blade (2nd pic):

"What god wills"/ "God wills it"

Rick · 28th May 2005, 03:14 PM

Mark ?

M.carter · 28th May 2005, 05:09 PM

Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah"

"Muhammad is the messenger of God"

erlikhan · 29th May 2005, 12:04 AM

I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you.
regards

Andrew · 29th May 2005, 06:06 AM

Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

M.carter · 29th May 2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

This sign was fairly common with the Ottomans, seen on buildings, weaponry and many more places. I do not know what it meant for them though.

derek · 29th May 2005, 06:42 PM

Solomon is an important figure in Islam. He was regarded for his wisdom, poetry, understanding the language of birds, and for commanding genii (demons).

-d

Rivkin · 29th May 2005, 06:57 PM

Well... My grandmother's clan is turkish-tatar (Bucharin). First appears in books in 1495 ad, however on their tamga (coat of arms) they had a star of david. As far as I remember according to Baskakov it was supposed to symbolize that they descended from jewish turks (khazars) and therefore already existed as a clan around V-IXth centuries.

There are in total 29 clan that are attributed to be "khazar" clans, all with the six point star in their tamgas.

However this theory, like all "jewish" theories on why is this symbol appears here and there need to be weighted against another fact - as a "seal of Solomon" hexagram was in extremely wide use, by mystics of all religions, and even not only by mystics, for example in Islam:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...playMode=print

or in Christianity:
http://www.nork.ru/burg/seal.html

So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected).

On the other hand sometimes even through the most simple explanation would be to interpret is as an "islamic symbol", it's actually "jewish" - mints of Seymur, or Georgian/Armenian/Ethiopean (in the latter case - more based on mythology than on facts) kings symolizing their jewish descent (while in case of Tbilisi mint on the surface it appears as if they are merely copying late Abbasid's coins) or even later minted coins in typical islamic countries, sometimes actually are "jewish" in origin.

28th May 2005, 03:14 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Any better ? Mark ? Attached Images

28th May 2005, 12:59 PM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hi Erlikhan, In the first pic you posted, from top: "There is only one god" "There is no man better than Ali, and no sword better than Thulfiqar" The third cartouche, I need a closer pic. On the other side of the blade (2nd pic): "What god wills"/ "God wills it"

28th May 2005, 05:09 PM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah" "Muhammad is the messenger of God"

29th May 2005, 12:04 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you. regards

29th May 2005, 06:06 AM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

29th May 2005, 06:42 PM	#7
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Solomon is an important figure in Islam. He was regarded for his wisdom, poetry, understanding the language of birds, and for commanding genii (demons). -d

29th May 2005, 06:57 PM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well... My grandmother's clan is turkish-tatar (Bucharin). First appears in books in 1495 ad, however on their tamga (coat of arms) they had a star of david. As far as I remember according to Baskakov it was supposed to symbolize that they descended from jewish turks (khazars) and therefore already existed as a clan around V-IXth centuries. There are in total 29 clan that are attributed to be "khazar" clans, all with the six point star in their tamgas. However this theory, like all "jewish" theories on why is this symbol appears here and there need to be weighted against another fact - as a "seal of Solomon" hexagram was in extremely wide use, by mystics of all religions, and even not only by mystics, for example in Islam: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...playMode=print or in Christianity: http://www.nork.ru/burg/seal.html So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected). On the other hand sometimes even through the most simple explanation would be to interpret is as an "islamic symbol", it's actually "jewish" - mints of Seymur, or Georgian/Armenian/Ethiopean (in the latter case - more based on mythology than on facts) kings symolizing their jewish descent (while in case of Tbilisi mint on the surface it appears as if they are merely copying late Abbasid's coins) or even later minted coins in typical islamic countries, sometimes actually are "jewish" in origin.