Malay (?) keris from Ebay

Gustav · 15th March 2010, 09:54 AM

As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade.

Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

Gustav · 15th March 2010, 11:45 PM

Has anybody seen this one alive? Is this a documentated sundang? If yes, what about the age of fittings? It seems to have a sheath mouth from other material.

The other one (excuse me please for using your picture, VVV) also.

PenangsangII · 17th March 2010, 11:40 AM

IMHO, Gustav's keris blade is recent Maduran made dressed in antique hulu, and repaired sheath - classic case of a seller meant to jack up his commodity. David's blade also look quite recent, I think peninsula made and aged less than 50 yrs.... but then its only an opinion....

Gustav · 17th March 2010, 12:10 PM

Dear PenangsangII,

may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall?

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Regards

David · 17th March 2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Well the blade was collected by someone i know personally in the USA about 40 years ago and i don't think it was new then. I had thought it was probably 20th century, but pre WW2. I also don't know the specifics of keris production on the Peninsula. Perhaps Dave H., Kai Wee or Shahrial know more about that.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 01:50 PM

G'day Alan,

All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person.

I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought).

I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 01:52 PM

Alan,

I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better).

Thanks.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 02:01 PM

Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age.

I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up.

Gustav · 17th March 2010, 02:03 PM

BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat.

Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

David · 16th March 2010, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade.

Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

I could be wrong, but i think any file marks that may be visible were part of the origin shaping of this keris.

Gustav · 16th March 2010, 09:37 AM

You are most probably wright, David.

The edges on greneng and kembang kacang are not really worn; this keris never needed resharpening, becouse it's probably very near to the original condition. What was my point, is the possibility of a visible file work on a non-Madura piece.

I ask me, if the sheath of the "initial" keris, if it's something older, would be not to small for any sundang at the mouth (maybe not for a sundang patrem

), the keris in it should be not to large (32,3 cm length from Ebay description).

Of course the sheath could be reshaped at the mouth and shortened (it would be the answer for the possibly new buntut), and this must leave signs. Are they visible on this sheath?

I suppose, it would be less complicated to make a new sheath then recarve a sundang sheath to this size.

BluErf · 16th March 2010, 02:54 PM

The horn strip at the mouth of the scabbard is a commonly seen occurrence for Malay sundangs in the 'sandang walikat' sheaths.

Gustav · 16th March 2010, 02:57 PM

Is this an older praktice? How are they fitted to the wood?

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2010, 10:45 PM

You've given some valuable information here Kai Wee.

Until I read your post I had a somewhat different idea regarding the horn strip at a scabbard's mouth.

I have not seen nearly as many Malay sundangs as you would have seen, but I have seen more than a few.

I have never seen this horn strip at the mouth of a sundang scabbard.

All the Malay sundangs I have seen have been very old, and most have been in the collection of one old time collector.

I've come across the horn strip a few times, and invariably it has been an addition that permitted a blade to be fitted neatly to a scabbard that had not been made specifically for it.

In all the cases I have seen, that horn strip was fitted with a modern adhesive. That adhesive appeared to be two part epoxy resin in most cases, but I have also seen what appeared to be a super glue, probably Alteco, and what appeared to be a modern wood glue, PVA.

I have never seen a horn strip attached with the traditional fish based glue that was used in SE Asia, nor with shellac, nor with a natural resin, damar.

So, when you tell us that this horn strip often appears at the mouth of a sundang scabbard, do you mean that you have seen it on old, obviously original scabbards, or is it something that is frequently done in modern times to achieve a neat fit, as is the case with keris scabbards for normal sized keris?

If you have seen it used on old, obviously original scabbards, have you been able to identify the adhesive, and method of attachment that was used?

It occurs to me that if this was an old-time practice used for ornamentation, rather than for concealment of an ill-fitting scabbard mouth, a bond with fish glue could be obtained by inletting tongues carved to the base of a thick piece of horn, and these tongues let into the top of the wrongko. If this was done, we could expect to see some old scabbards where the horn strip has been lost, exposing the hole for the tongue. I've never seen this, but you may have, and if you have, this would verify that this horn strip addition did exist prior to the advent of moderrn adhesives.

EDIT

I've noted that you specifically mention sundangs in sandang walikat scabbards..
I've never seen these, but apparently you have seen a considerable number, and Dave Henkel also mentions that they are not uncommon.
Just how frequently could we expect to encounter sundang in sandang walikat?

Are they common, or would we see perhaps ten normal scabbards for one sandang walikat?

Can you quantify frequency of occurrence of the sundang sandang walikat?

rasdan · 17th March 2010, 08:42 AM

G'day Alan,

I dont know much about this, but i had attached pictures of a sundang that i used to have- with a sandang walikat sheath. The mouth have horn fittings that seems to be is original. The sheath is made from one piece drilled wood. The tip of the scabbard is horn, but is a bit damaged. I added the thread bindings to cover the defect. Everything appears to be more or less reasonably old. How old, i'm not sure.

The sheath is very slim fitting to the blade as opposed to the newer version where the tukangs will normally make it thicker to probably to reduce the risk of puncturing the wood. I didn't check the type of glue used on this particular sheath.

Many of the sundangs i've seen here in Malaysia have this sort of sheath. But, my guess is the style is not very old. The hilt and the silverwork of this particular one is a replacement as the original one is badly damaged.

The second picture that i attached is a sundang in the KL Museum of Natural History. The third one is from the same museum, but appears to have a newer sheath.

In many "reconditoned" bugis keris sheath, the addition of a strip of horn to the sheath mouth is definitely to hide the refitting of the blade to a different sheath, but in the case of the sundang, i would presume that the addition of horn to the sheath mouth is to reinforce it since sena is too soft to be shaped as a sheath mouth properly. However, i cant say when this practice started.

15th March 2010, 11:45 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Has anybody seen this one alive? Is this a documentated sundang? If yes, what about the age of fittings? It seems to have a sheath mouth from other material. The other one (excuse me please for using your picture, VVV) also. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 16th March 2010 at 12:14 AM.

17th March 2010, 12:10 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Dear PenangsangII, may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall? Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it? Regards Last edited by Gustav; 17th March 2010 at 12:31 PM.

17th March 2010, 01:50 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	G'day Alan, All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person. I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought). I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples. Attached Images

17th March 2010, 02:01 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age. I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up. Attached Images

16th March 2010, 09:37 AM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	You are most probably wright, David. The edges on greneng and kembang kacang are not really worn; this keris never needed resharpening, becouse it's probably very near to the original condition. What was my point, is the possibility of a visible file work on a non-Madura piece. I ask me, if the sheath of the "initial" keris, if it's something older, would be not to small for any sundang at the mouth (maybe not for a sundang patrem ), the keris in it should be not to large (32,3 cm length from Ebay description). Of course the sheath could be reshaped at the mouth and shortened (it would be the answer for the possibly new buntut), and this must leave signs. Are they visible on this sheath? I suppose, it would be less complicated to make a new sheath then recarve a sundang sheath to this size. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 17th March 2010 at 09:37 AM.

15th March 2010, 09:54 AM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade. Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

17th March 2010, 11:40 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	IMHO, Gustav's keris blade is recent Maduran made dressed in antique hulu, and repaired sheath - classic case of a seller meant to jack up his commodity. David's blade also look quite recent, I think peninsula made and aged less than 50 yrs.... but then its only an opinion....

17th March 2010, 01:52 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Alan, I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better). Thanks.

17th March 2010, 02:03 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat. Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

16th March 2010, 02:54 PM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The horn strip at the mouth of the scabbard is a commonly seen occurrence for Malay sundangs in the 'sandang walikat' sheaths.

16th March 2010, 02:57 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Is this an older praktice? How are they fitted to the wood?

16th March 2010, 10:45 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	You've given some valuable information here Kai Wee. Until I read your post I had a somewhat different idea regarding the horn strip at a scabbard's mouth. I have not seen nearly as many Malay sundangs as you would have seen, but I have seen more than a few. I have never seen this horn strip at the mouth of a sundang scabbard. All the Malay sundangs I have seen have been very old, and most have been in the collection of one old time collector. I've come across the horn strip a few times, and invariably it has been an addition that permitted a blade to be fitted neatly to a scabbard that had not been made specifically for it. In all the cases I have seen, that horn strip was fitted with a modern adhesive. That adhesive appeared to be two part epoxy resin in most cases, but I have also seen what appeared to be a super glue, probably Alteco, and what appeared to be a modern wood glue, PVA. I have never seen a horn strip attached with the traditional fish based glue that was used in SE Asia, nor with shellac, nor with a natural resin, damar. So, when you tell us that this horn strip often appears at the mouth of a sundang scabbard, do you mean that you have seen it on old, obviously original scabbards, or is it something that is frequently done in modern times to achieve a neat fit, as is the case with keris scabbards for normal sized keris? If you have seen it used on old, obviously original scabbards, have you been able to identify the adhesive, and method of attachment that was used? It occurs to me that if this was an old-time practice used for ornamentation, rather than for concealment of an ill-fitting scabbard mouth, a bond with fish glue could be obtained by inletting tongues carved to the base of a thick piece of horn, and these tongues let into the top of the wrongko. If this was done, we could expect to see some old scabbards where the horn strip has been lost, exposing the hole for the tongue. I've never seen this, but you may have, and if you have, this would verify that this horn strip addition did exist prior to the advent of moderrn adhesives. EDIT I've noted that you specifically mention sundangs in sandang walikat scabbards.. I've never seen these, but apparently you have seen a considerable number, and Dave Henkel also mentions that they are not uncommon. Just how frequently could we expect to encounter sundang in sandang walikat? Are they common, or would we see perhaps ten normal scabbards for one sandang walikat? Can you quantify frequency of occurrence of the sundang sandang walikat?

17th March 2010, 08:42 AM	#15
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	G'day Alan, I dont know much about this, but i had attached pictures of a sundang that i used to have- with a sandang walikat sheath. The mouth have horn fittings that seems to be is original. The sheath is made from one piece drilled wood. The tip of the scabbard is horn, but is a bit damaged. I added the thread bindings to cover the defect. Everything appears to be more or less reasonably old. How old, i'm not sure. The sheath is very slim fitting to the blade as opposed to the newer version where the tukangs will normally make it thicker to probably to reduce the risk of puncturing the wood. I didn't check the type of glue used on this particular sheath. Many of the sundangs i've seen here in Malaysia have this sort of sheath. But, my guess is the style is not very old. The hilt and the silverwork of this particular one is a replacement as the original one is badly damaged. The second picture that i attached is a sundang in the KL Museum of Natural History. The third one is from the same museum, but appears to have a newer sheath. In many "reconditoned" bugis keris sheath, the addition of a strip of horn to the sheath mouth is definitely to hide the refitting of the blade to a different sheath, but in the case of the sundang, i would presume that the addition of horn to the sheath mouth is to reinforce it since sena is too soft to be shaped as a sheath mouth properly. However, i cant say when this practice started. Attached Images