Malay (?) keris from Ebay

Gustav · 14th March 2010, 07:32 PM

File marks seem also to be not unusual, becouse of the resharpening praktice.

David · 14th March 2010, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

File marks seem also to be not unusual, becouse of the resharpening praktice.

I am not aware of any resharpening practice. Can you elaborate?

Gustav · 15th March 2010, 09:54 AM

As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade.

Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

Gustav · 15th March 2010, 11:45 PM

Has anybody seen this one alive? Is this a documentated sundang? If yes, what about the age of fittings? It seems to have a sheath mouth from other material.

The other one (excuse me please for using your picture, VVV) also.

PenangsangII · 17th March 2010, 11:40 AM

IMHO, Gustav's keris blade is recent Maduran made dressed in antique hulu, and repaired sheath - classic case of a seller meant to jack up his commodity. David's blade also look quite recent, I think peninsula made and aged less than 50 yrs.... but then its only an opinion....

Gustav · 17th March 2010, 12:10 PM

Dear PenangsangII,

may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall?

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Regards

David · 17th March 2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Well the blade was collected by someone i know personally in the USA about 40 years ago and i don't think it was new then. I had thought it was probably 20th century, but pre WW2. I also don't know the specifics of keris production on the Peninsula. Perhaps Dave H., Kai Wee or Shahrial know more about that.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 01:50 PM

G'day Alan,

All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person.

I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought).

I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples.

David · 16th March 2010, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade.

Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

I could be wrong, but i think any file marks that may be visible were part of the origin shaping of this keris.

Gustav · 16th March 2010, 09:37 AM

You are most probably wright, David.

The edges on greneng and kembang kacang are not really worn; this keris never needed resharpening, becouse it's probably very near to the original condition. What was my point, is the possibility of a visible file work on a non-Madura piece.

I ask me, if the sheath of the "initial" keris, if it's something older, would be not to small for any sundang at the mouth (maybe not for a sundang patrem

), the keris in it should be not to large (32,3 cm length from Ebay description).

Of course the sheath could be reshaped at the mouth and shortened (it would be the answer for the possibly new buntut), and this must leave signs. Are they visible on this sheath?

I suppose, it would be less complicated to make a new sheath then recarve a sundang sheath to this size.

BluErf · 16th March 2010, 02:54 PM

The horn strip at the mouth of the scabbard is a commonly seen occurrence for Malay sundangs in the 'sandang walikat' sheaths.

Gustav · 16th March 2010, 02:57 PM

Is this an older praktice? How are they fitted to the wood?

14th March 2010, 07:32 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	File marks seem also to be not unusual, becouse of the resharpening praktice. Last edited by Gustav; 14th March 2010 at 08:24 PM.

15th March 2010, 11:45 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Has anybody seen this one alive? Is this a documentated sundang? If yes, what about the age of fittings? It seems to have a sheath mouth from other material. The other one (excuse me please for using your picture, VVV) also. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 16th March 2010 at 12:14 AM.

17th March 2010, 12:10 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Dear PenangsangII, may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall? Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it? Regards Last edited by Gustav; 17th March 2010 at 12:31 PM.

17th March 2010, 01:50 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	G'day Alan, All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person. I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought). I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples. Attached Images

16th March 2010, 09:37 AM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	You are most probably wright, David. The edges on greneng and kembang kacang are not really worn; this keris never needed resharpening, becouse it's probably very near to the original condition. What was my point, is the possibility of a visible file work on a non-Madura piece. I ask me, if the sheath of the "initial" keris, if it's something older, would be not to small for any sundang at the mouth (maybe not for a sundang patrem ), the keris in it should be not to large (32,3 cm length from Ebay description). Of course the sheath could be reshaped at the mouth and shortened (it would be the answer for the possibly new buntut), and this must leave signs. Are they visible on this sheath? I suppose, it would be less complicated to make a new sheath then recarve a sundang sheath to this size. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 17th March 2010 at 09:37 AM.

15th March 2010, 09:54 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade. Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

17th March 2010, 11:40 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	IMHO, Gustav's keris blade is recent Maduran made dressed in antique hulu, and repaired sheath - classic case of a seller meant to jack up his commodity. David's blade also look quite recent, I think peninsula made and aged less than 50 yrs.... but then its only an opinion....

16th March 2010, 02:54 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The horn strip at the mouth of the scabbard is a commonly seen occurrence for Malay sundangs in the 'sandang walikat' sheaths.

16th March 2010, 02:57 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Is this an older praktice? How are they fitted to the wood?