For those who love African swords

[Lew]

Gav

I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why.
Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show.

Lew

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Gav

I don't think you will find early examples with native made blades here is why.
Prior to 1900 these swords were probably used as real weapons and the European blades were the best a warrior could buy. Thin poorly made sheet metal blades were basically for show.

Lew

G'day Lew.

My understanding is that these swords with European blades, whilst most likely used for real fighting and up for the job, were actually used as a status symbol and as dress swords to show high status and wealth, I guess untimately this is "show" sword...

That being said, this to me wouldn't place a native blade in the "show" category.

Did native blades of antiquity exist in these regions?

Thoughts?

Gav

[Lew]

Gav

North Africa and West Africa have been influenced by the Arabs and then the Europeans going back over 500 yrs so I really can't say if ther were any actual native sword blades? I just think the native blades were copies of European blades? You do have the shotel which is a native design but the saber types were of European origins.

Btw
What I meant by native blades for show is the hilt and scabbard were made for visual appeal (status) but the thin blade had no real combat use.

[Tim Simmons]

In support of the native thin blade. The Dha benefits from just a touch more weight but only a touch. But much more sophisticated fullering adding a little stiffness, there is very little discernible difference in temper. The Dha is also balanced for a faster close quarter combat but essentially the blades are very similar. Like not judging a book by its cover.

[Lew]

Tim

Thickness of the steel is not everything one must take into account the type of steel being used and the heat treatment used on the steel. I'm sure the African piece shown is functional but I can see some warping from the top view the finish of the blade is pretty rough and I am wondering if it has a springy blade? If I was going into a combat situation I would still want my sword to have a 19th century European saber blade rather than a reground machete blade or one made from some mystery steel.

[Tim Simmons]

I have just ordered a copy of-

Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate: Historical and Sociological Perspectives. Cambridge university.

-from an inspiring extract I was able to glean that in the 19th century the adoption of cavalry was a revolutionary tactic. From that one might assume that the short form is the more original version? Like the picture of the Dha an infantry weapon. Until I have the book I will suggest that the French blade may well be a late adoption.

The extract at the bottom of this link might also throw some light on the short version.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/182766

[asomotif]

This type of sword is quite commonly found world wide, and I never wondered where it exactly comes from.

But the names in this thread seem confusing.
Mandinka = west Africa, Gambia / Senegal, Guinnee Bissau.

But than there is a book about the Sokoto Caliphate, which is north Nigeria.
I guess at leats 500 miles eastwards.

What is the correct tribe of these swords ?

Best regards,

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have just ordered a copy of-

Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate: Historical and Sociological Perspectives. Cambridge university.

-from an inspiring extract I was able to glean that in the 19th century the adoption of cavalry was a revolutionary tactic. From that one might assume that the short form is the more original version? Like the picture of the Dha an infantry weapon. Until I have the book I will suggest that the French blade may well be a late adoption.

The extract at the bottom of this link might also throw some light on the short version.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/182766

Tim, do inform us of what you find in there when received.
A number of points do require clarity.

I wish to note as points only that both support and confuse the notions;
Cavalry were used by countries/tribes neighbouring the Sokoto Caliphate in the early 1800s.
European countries had coastal contact with these neighbouring countries for centuries.
I have not yet noted in my limited reading anything refering to iron manufacturing from ore so blades were most likely traded all through the 19th century.
France didn't really have any major control until the late 1800s.

Below is a blurb and the contents of the book.

The successful jihad of 1804 in Hausaland - perhaps the most important Islamic revolution in West African history, with consequences still apparent in Nigeria today - resulted in the establishment of the Sokoto Caliphate, the largest and most enduring West African polity in the nineteenth century. The book is a full length study of traditional Sudanic military history, and an authoritative analysis of warfare in its most prominent Islamic state. After a brief survey of the evolution of Sudanic warfare and military organisation before 1800, Dr Smaldone examines the historical development and sociological implications of the two important revolutions in military technology which occurred in the nineteenth century: the adoption of cavalry during the jihad period and the introduction of firearms in the latter half of the century. He argues that these two revolutions were causal factors in producing two structural transformations in the emirates of the Caliphate, first from relatively egalitarian combatant communities to feudal systems, and then to centralised bureaucratic state organisations.

Contents
Part I. Historical Perspectives: 1. Introduction: Sudanic Warfare and Military Organisation to c. 1800; 2. The Jihad Period, c. 1790–1817; 3. Military Organisation in the Sokoto Caliphate, c. 1817–1860; 4. Organisation for Defence and Security; 5. The Theory and Practice of War; 6. The Firearms Trade in the Central Sudan: The Expansion of the 'Gun-frontier'; 7. Firearms in the Sokoto Caliphate, c. 1860–1903; Part II. Sociological Perspectives: 8. The Evolution of Politico-Military Organisation in the Sokoto Caliphate, c. 1790–1903; 9. The Functions of War in the Sokoto Caliphate; 10. Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate: Summary and Conclusions.