Could the closed Greek helmet kill a warrior?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Yannis,

Nice to hear you are amused. I could of course have chosen another helmet, but I chose the Greek helmet as I thought it would be easier for the other members to imagine the heat, as it is closed. When historians wrote about how many dead there were after a battle, I would be more than surprised if they had written how many died of heath stroke, so no wonder that you did not see any references to it anywhere – neither have I, but that is no reason not to wonder about it.

[Lew]

Jens

Check out this link.http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto...archPosition=9

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory


Lew

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory

I have test modern army helmet and I use to wear my motorcycle helmet in greek summer and they are both enough hot. Thank you

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Lew/Yannis,

Splendid idea. After having thought about it once more, I think I will keep Yannis company and stand by the ringside video filming you on the ‘battle field’, This will be a most important part of experimental archaeology – and I am sure, that would you write a book about the experiment, it might very well be a bestseller. BTW I don’t think the temperature should be under 35C.
Jens

[tom hyle]

I don't think I can summon up much belief that European plate armour is descended from Middle Eastern armours encountered in the crusades, both because the use of hard plates in armour in Europe predates this and seems to evolve fairly continuously, without "jumping" to an unrecognizable product; each is a relative of the last, and (more strikingly) because there seem to be significant differences in basic philosophy/design/layout between "Eastern"/Islamic armours and European ones. The shape of the plates is different (the Islamic ones are flatter and more angular/geometric; the European tend toward a more organnic/naturalistic/body-based shape), as is the way they join to each other or to the rest of the harness, as is the way that bodily joints, elbows and knees, are handled (the Islamic ones being markedly similar to only the earliest European ones; ones far predating the crusades.). It seems like two seperate/oposing streams, and if one came from the other directly It must have been very long ago (of course the first crusades were).....I think they are parrallel evolutions from distant common ancestors. BTW, AFAIK there is little or no Islamic equivalent to European full plate armour? Chainmail is said to be a Celtic invention. Is there a competing contention from/for the East?

[Aqtai]

I'm not suggesting Western European plate armour is descended from Islamic armours, however I do believe that Islamic armour had a strong influence on the development of European armour. I also believe that the brigandine or 'pair of plates' originated in the Near East and was taken back to Europe by the crusaders. I also think that the basinet with its mail camail is descended from 13th century Islamic helmets that had mail camails.

Although it has to be said that there is another contender for the ancestry of the bascinet. Early basinets have a more conical shape and the visor is attached by a single hinge in the middle of the forehead. This bears a resemblance to the "Kipchaq" helmets worn in Russia and Central Asia in the 10th-13th centuries. This is my own little theory, please feel free to totally disregard it.

With regards to mail, there is very little doubt that it was invented by the Celts, adopted by the Romans who in Turn passed it on the Iranians. However I believe it was the Iranians, specifically the Parthians, who added longer sleeves and skirts to mail shirts. I have also read, please don't ask me where because I can't remember, that it is possible that the Ancient Assyrians invented mail. As far as know there is no evidence for this beyond the fact that the Assyrians were making very fine Iron helmets in the 7th century, and reliefs from the palace of king Ashurbanipal, now in the British Museum, which show Assyrian soldiers wearing some kind of long armoured coat reaching to the knees or ankles with elbow length sleeves and a coif of some kind attached to the helmet. This armour is usually described as being scale or lamellar. But the 'cut' bears a striking resemblance to mail.

Please excuse the atrocious quality of these pictures:


Helmet no. 3 above is the type I'm referring to. You can't see it in the pic, but there is a hinge in the middle of the forehead connecting the visor to the skull.

I'm aware I've gone way off topic here, so I'll put in this pic:


Helmets of this type were the most popular helmet in ancient Greece for about 300 years. If they had been so dangerous, they would not have used. Another point, they were only worn in battle, when not fighting hoplites would push them up to the top of their heads.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Aqtai

Another point, they were only worn in battle, when not fighting hoplites would push them up to the top of their heads.

Exactly! Like Pericles in the photo. Although, the sources say that he was wearing it like this mostly because he had a bad form of the head! He was the builder of Athenian Golden Age and maybe his brain was too big