Could the closed Greek helmet kill a warrior?

Yannis · 25th May 2005, 08:39 PM

Dear friends, I am back home after a long trip and I found this discusion very amusing.

As a Greek with some knowledge on the history of my land, I have never heard of someone dying of heatstroke during an ancient battle. But probably they were.

There is a very famous story about Fidipedes, the man that after the battle of Marathon run to Athens to bring the news of victory. He died from exhaustion, but not only from this running. Before few days he had run to Sparta to ask help and after that he was fighting in the battlefield. So Marathon running was born.

Also it was a tradition in ancient Greece, that it was alive till the greek revolution of 1821. The warriors used to wash their body and their hair before battle. Because of this thread, I am wondering now if this tradition was actually a way to keep their body temperature low.

Finally I sugest you, if you are interest about ancient greek fighting to read Persfield's novel "Gates of fire" about the spartan warriors and the battle of Thermopylae. If you like swords you will love this novel. It maked me understand how a man can stand all day choping and slashing other humans.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th May 2005, 09:35 PM

Hi Yannis,

Nice to hear you are amused. I could of course have chosen another helmet, but I chose the Greek helmet as I thought it would be easier for the other members to imagine the heat, as it is closed. When historians wrote about how many dead there were after a battle, I would be more than surprised if they had written how many died of heath stroke, so no wonder that you did not see any references to it anywhere – neither have I, but that is no reason not to wonder about it

.

Lew · 25th May 2005, 10:36 PM

Jens

Check out this link.http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto...archPosition=9

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory

Lew

Yannis · 26th May 2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory

I have test modern army helmet and I use to wear my motorcycle helmet in greek summer and they are both enough hot. Thank you

Jens Nordlunde · 26th May 2005, 09:01 AM

Hi Lew/Yannis,

Splendid idea. After having thought about it once more, I think I will keep Yannis company and stand by the ringside video filming you on the ‘battle field’, This will be a most important part of experimental archaeology – and I am sure, that would you write a book about the experiment, it might very well be a bestseller. BTW I don’t think the temperature should be under 35C

.
Jens

tom hyle · 26th May 2005, 09:37 AM

I don't think I can summon up much belief that European plate armour is descended from Middle Eastern armours encountered in the crusades, both because the use of hard plates in armour in Europe predates this and seems to evolve fairly continuously, without "jumping" to an unrecognizable product; each is a relative of the last, and (more strikingly) because there seem to be significant differences in basic philosophy/design/layout between "Eastern"/Islamic armours and European ones. The shape of the plates is different (the Islamic ones are flatter and more angular/geometric; the European tend toward a more organnic/naturalistic/body-based shape), as is the way they join to each other or to the rest of the harness, as is the way that bodily joints, elbows and knees, are handled (the Islamic ones being markedly similar to only the earliest European ones; ones far predating the crusades.). It seems like two seperate/oposing streams, and if one came from the other directly It must have been very long ago (of course the first crusades were).....I think they are parrallel evolutions from distant common ancestors. BTW, AFAIK there is little or no Islamic equivalent to European full plate armour? Chainmail is said to be a Celtic invention. Is there a competing contention from/for the East?

Aqtai · 26th May 2005, 11:33 AM

I'm not suggesting Western European plate armour is descended from Islamic armours, however I do believe that Islamic armour had a strong influence on the development of European armour. I also believe that the brigandine or 'pair of plates' originated in the Near East and was taken back to Europe by the crusaders. I also think that the basinet with its mail camail is descended from 13th century Islamic helmets that had mail camails.

Although it has to be said that there is another contender for the ancestry of the bascinet. Early basinets have a more conical shape and the visor is attached by a single hinge in the middle of the forehead. This bears a resemblance to the "Kipchaq" helmets worn in Russia and Central Asia in the 10th-13th centuries. This is my own little theory, please feel free to totally disregard it.

With regards to mail, there is very little doubt that it was invented by the Celts, adopted by the Romans who in Turn passed it on the Iranians. However I believe it was the Iranians, specifically the Parthians, who added longer sleeves and skirts to mail shirts. I have also read, please don't ask me where because I can't remember, that it is possible that the Ancient Assyrians invented mail. As far as know there is no evidence for this beyond the fact that the Assyrians were making very fine Iron helmets in the 7th century, and reliefs from the palace of king Ashurbanipal, now in the British Museum, which show Assyrian soldiers wearing some kind of long armoured coat reaching to the knees or ankles with elbow length sleeves and a coif of some kind attached to the helmet. This armour is usually described as being scale or lamellar. But the 'cut' bears a striking resemblance to mail.

Please excuse the atrocious quality of these pictures:

Helmet no. 3 above is the type I'm referring to. You can't see it in the pic, but there is a hinge in the middle of the forehead connecting the visor to the skull.

I'm aware I've gone way off topic here, so I'll put in this pic:

Helmets of this type were the most popular helmet in ancient Greece for about 300 years. If they had been so dangerous, they would not have used. Another point, they were only worn in battle, when not fighting hoplites would push them up to the top of their heads.

25th May 2005, 08:39 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	wash and go Dear friends, I am back home after a long trip and I found this discusion very amusing. As a Greek with some knowledge on the history of my land, I have never heard of someone dying of heatstroke during an ancient battle. But probably they were. There is a very famous story about Fidipedes, the man that after the battle of Marathon run to Athens to bring the news of victory. He died from exhaustion, but not only from this running. Before few days he had run to Sparta to ask help and after that he was fighting in the battlefield. So Marathon running was born. Also it was a tradition in ancient Greece, that it was alive till the greek revolution of 1821. The warriors used to wash their body and their hair before battle. Because of this thread, I am wondering now if this tradition was actually a way to keep their body temperature low. Finally I sugest you, if you are interest about ancient greek fighting to read Persfield's novel "Gates of fire" about the spartan warriors and the battle of Thermopylae. If you like swords you will love this novel. It maked me understand how a man can stand all day choping and slashing other humans.

25th May 2005, 09:35 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Yannis, Nice to hear you are amused. I could of course have chosen another helmet, but I chose the Greek helmet as I thought it would be easier for the other members to imagine the heat, as it is closed. When historians wrote about how many dead there were after a battle, I would be more than surprised if they had written how many died of heath stroke, so no wonder that you did not see any references to it anywhere – neither have I, but that is no reason not to wonder about it.

26th May 2005, 09:01 AM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Lew/Yannis, Splendid idea. After having thought about it once more, I think I will keep Yannis company and stand by the ringside video filming you on the ‘battle field’, This will be a most important part of experimental archaeology – and I am sure, that would you write a book about the experiment, it might very well be a bestseller. BTW I don’t think the temperature should be under 35C. Jens

26th May 2005, 09:37 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I don't think I can summon up much belief that European plate armour is descended from Middle Eastern armours encountered in the crusades, both because the use of hard plates in armour in Europe predates this and seems to evolve fairly continuously, without "jumping" to an unrecognizable product; each is a relative of the last, and (more strikingly) because there seem to be significant differences in basic philosophy/design/layout between "Eastern"/Islamic armours and European ones. The shape of the plates is different (the Islamic ones are flatter and more angular/geometric; the European tend toward a more organnic/naturalistic/body-based shape), as is the way they join to each other or to the rest of the harness, as is the way that bodily joints, elbows and knees, are handled (the Islamic ones being markedly similar to only the earliest European ones; ones far predating the crusades.). It seems like two seperate/oposing streams, and if one came from the other directly It must have been very long ago (of course the first crusades were).....I think they are parrallel evolutions from distant common ancestors. BTW, AFAIK there is little or no Islamic equivalent to European full plate armour? Chainmail is said to be a Celtic invention. Is there a competing contention from/for the East? Last edited by tom hyle; 26th May 2005 at 10:20 AM.

25th May 2005, 10:36 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jens Check out this link.http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto...archPosition=9 Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory Lew

26th May 2005, 11:33 AM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I'm not suggesting Western European plate armour is descended from Islamic armours, however I do believe that Islamic armour had a strong influence on the development of European armour. I also believe that the brigandine or 'pair of plates' originated in the Near East and was taken back to Europe by the crusaders. I also think that the basinet with its mail camail is descended from 13th century Islamic helmets that had mail camails. Although it has to be said that there is another contender for the ancestry of the bascinet. Early basinets have a more conical shape and the visor is attached by a single hinge in the middle of the forehead. This bears a resemblance to the "Kipchaq" helmets worn in Russia and Central Asia in the 10th-13th centuries. This is my own little theory, please feel free to totally disregard it. With regards to mail, there is very little doubt that it was invented by the Celts, adopted by the Romans who in Turn passed it on the Iranians. However I believe it was the Iranians, specifically the Parthians, who added longer sleeves and skirts to mail shirts. I have also read, please don't ask me where because I can't remember, that it is possible that the Ancient Assyrians invented mail. As far as know there is no evidence for this beyond the fact that the Assyrians were making very fine Iron helmets in the 7th century, and reliefs from the palace of king Ashurbanipal, now in the British Museum, which show Assyrian soldiers wearing some kind of long armoured coat reaching to the knees or ankles with elbow length sleeves and a coif of some kind attached to the helmet. This armour is usually described as being scale or lamellar. But the 'cut' bears a striking resemblance to mail. Please excuse the atrocious quality of these pictures: Helmet no. 3 above is the type I'm referring to. You can't see it in the pic, but there is a hinge in the middle of the forehead connecting the visor to the skull. I'm aware I've gone way off topic here, so I'll put in this pic: Helmets of this type were the most popular helmet in ancient Greece for about 300 years. If they had been so dangerous, they would not have used. Another point, they were only worn in battle, when not fighting hoplites would push them up to the top of their heads.