Ivory Silver Swassa Barong

VANDOO · 24th February 2010, 04:42 PM

A BIG MACHINE IN A FORIGN COUNTRY MAKES STEEL BLADES AND EXPORTS THEM TO A COUNTRY THAT STILL MAKES BLADES AT THE FORGE BY HAND. WHEN THIS MONO STEEL IS FIRST SEEN EVERYONE IS IMPRESSED AND THE SALESMEN SELL AND TRADE LOTS OF THEM. THE TRADER PRESENTS A FANCY WEAPON TO THE DATU AS A SELLING POINT TO ATTRACT OTHERS TO HIS GOODS.
LATER IT IS LEARNED THAT A MACHINE MAKES THESE BLADES NOT A SMITH OR EMPU AND NO HANDS ON RITUAL HAS BEEN PERFORMED SO THERE IS NO SPIRIT OR MAGIC IN THE BLADE. THOSE WHO WORKED AND STILL WORK AT FORGEING BLADES WERE ATTRIBUTED TO HAVE SOME MAGICAL SKILLS THAT HAD OFTEN BEEN PASSED DOWN FOR GENERATIONS. SO JUST AS A SAMURAI WANTED A SWORD FROM A MASTER WHO WAS FAMOUS AND IN DEMAND IT IS LIKELY A DATU FELT THE SAME WAY.
THE PATTERNS STARTED BECAUSE OF THE NATURAL PROCESS OF USING SMALLER BITS OF METAL AND FOLDING THEM TOGETHER BUT SOME FOUND WAYS TO CONTROL AND DEVELOP PATTERNS. I HAVE NOT READ OF ANY POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO CERTIAN PATTERNS IN PHILIPPINE KRIS BLADES BUT HAVE LITTLE DOUBT THAT THERE WERE SOME JUST AS THERE ARE WITH THE INDONESIAN KERIS. THESE PATTERNS ARE A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT AND SHOW THE SKILL OF THE MAKER BUT I THINK THERE WAS MORE MEANING TO THEM THAN JUST LOOKING PRETTY THAT HAS BEEN LOST.
AS MENTIONED ABOVE SOME OF THE MONO STEEL DATU WEAPONS WERE MADE BY FORIGNERS WHO WANTED TO IMPRESS THE LOCAL DATU BY GIVING HIM A FANCY WEAPON TO HELP GAIN THE INSIDE TRACK FOR TRADE.
SO EVEN IF A MONO STEEL BLADE MAY BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN A HAND FORGED PATTERENED BLADE THERE WERE MAGICAL, TRADITIONAL AND SPIRITUAL REASONS TO WANT A WEAPON MADE IN THE OLD WAYS.
THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BASED ON LOGIC BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE THERE IS NO WRITTEN PROOF SO THINK OF IT AS AN INTERESTING STORY NOT PROVEN FACT.

mross · 24th February 2010, 04:56 PM

Blades made from mono-steel are still forged. So I guess I'm missing the point?

ThePepperSkull · 24th February 2010, 05:30 PM

I must be missing the point as well... Said foreign traders could have sold/given the datus or the swordsmiths steel billet blanks as oppposed to making a blade beforehand. This way, the forging process would still theoretically take place by the Moro Panday.

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned. I don't know if said foreign blademakers would have had the same forging traditions and rituals as the native Moro Panday. I doubt it though.

Rick · 24th February 2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned.

Hold on thar ..

How did we come to this conclusion ???

ThePepperSkull · 24th February 2010, 05:50 PM

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29

VANDOO · 24th February 2010, 07:45 PM

IF THE BLADE HAS A CHINESE STAMP AND CAME COMPLETE AND WAS ALREADY A FINISHED BLADE PERHAPS A COMPLETE WEAPON. IN SUCH A CASE NO FORGEING WOULD BE REQUIRED LOCALLY AND IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO RETAIL.
IF A SHEET OF FINISHED STEEL WAS READY TO CUT TO SHAPE AND PUT ON EDGES AND FINISH THIS CAN BE DONE BY STOCK REMOVAL, AGAIN FORGEING IS NOT NECESSARY.
PERHAPS NAILS, BALL BEARINGS OR CAR PARTS WERE USED OR THE TRADERS BROUGHT THE LOCAL SMITH SOME BILLITS THEN LOCALS WOULD DO THE FORGEING AND IF THERE WERE ANY MAGICAL OR SPIRITUAL CEREMONIES THEY COULD BE PERFORMED PROPERLY.
I FEEL ITS DIFFERENT IF THESE CEREMONIES ARE PREFORMED DURING FORGEING PERHAPS ADDING A SPIDER OR SNAKE POISON OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL WITH MAGICAL PROPERTIES. I SUPPOSE A SHAMAN OR PRIEST COULD BLESS A WEAPON IMPORTED FROM CHINA OR ELSEWHERE BUT IT WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONS.
I AM NOT SAYING A FACTORY MONO STEEL BLADE IS NOT BETTER BUT THAT OF THE TWO I WOULD PREFER A TRADITIONALLY MADE BLADE.
A DATU MIGHT HAVE WANTED A LARGE SUPPLY OF WEAPONS FOR HIS WARRIORS AND LOCAL SMITHS COULD NOT SUPPLY THEM AS QUICKLY OR AS CHEAP AS TRADERS. IT IS LIKELY A DATU OR MORO WARRIOR COULD GET A GOOD BLADE CHEAPER FROM CHINA OR OTHER PLACES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEM IN BY THE BOAT LOAD JUST LIKE TODAY IN AMERICA. I HAVE NOT FOUND PHILIPPINE BLADES WITH CHINESE MARKS TO BE COMMON AND HAVE SEEN MANY MORE WITH NO MARKS.

THATS THE BEST I CAN DO AT EXPLAINING MY THOUGHTS I AM NOT REALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT JUST EXPRESSING MY THINKING ON IT.

mross · 24th February 2010, 09:04 PM

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

Rick · 24th February 2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29

Yes, I am quite familiar with the Chinese blades; I question whether they were really meant to be high status or some just ended up in nice dress .

I have seen these blades on lesser-than-datu-quality barungs .

Anyway, we digress .........

Bill · 24th February 2010, 09:34 PM

I think Vandoo has made some good points. Trade blades were listed on European manifests. I believe I was reading about Wallace & he mentions a large shipment of leaf shaped blades for trade in Celebes; in a ship he is hitching a ride from. I'd guess the Chinese would do the same.

I don't know if this is just by chance or not. I've got some Maguindanao kris that, when stained, have a beautiful marble like pattern. I also have some Maranao kris that are mono steel. By the file work, dress, I figure that both groups produced the swords around 1900. Earlier & later pieces of both groups vary in use of metals. So I assume the Maranao has a good source for mono steel, where the Maguindanao were collecting from multiple sources; at this particular point in time.

24th February 2010, 05:50 PM	#5
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Sorry, I should have explained. Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith. Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29 Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 24th February 2010 at 06:10 PM.

24th February 2010, 04:42 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A BIG MACHINE IN A FORIGN COUNTRY MAKES STEEL BLADES AND EXPORTS THEM TO A COUNTRY THAT STILL MAKES BLADES AT THE FORGE BY HAND. WHEN THIS MONO STEEL IS FIRST SEEN EVERYONE IS IMPRESSED AND THE SALESMEN SELL AND TRADE LOTS OF THEM. THE TRADER PRESENTS A FANCY WEAPON TO THE DATU AS A SELLING POINT TO ATTRACT OTHERS TO HIS GOODS. LATER IT IS LEARNED THAT A MACHINE MAKES THESE BLADES NOT A SMITH OR EMPU AND NO HANDS ON RITUAL HAS BEEN PERFORMED SO THERE IS NO SPIRIT OR MAGIC IN THE BLADE. THOSE WHO WORKED AND STILL WORK AT FORGEING BLADES WERE ATTRIBUTED TO HAVE SOME MAGICAL SKILLS THAT HAD OFTEN BEEN PASSED DOWN FOR GENERATIONS. SO JUST AS A SAMURAI WANTED A SWORD FROM A MASTER WHO WAS FAMOUS AND IN DEMAND IT IS LIKELY A DATU FELT THE SAME WAY. THE PATTERNS STARTED BECAUSE OF THE NATURAL PROCESS OF USING SMALLER BITS OF METAL AND FOLDING THEM TOGETHER BUT SOME FOUND WAYS TO CONTROL AND DEVELOP PATTERNS. I HAVE NOT READ OF ANY POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO CERTIAN PATTERNS IN PHILIPPINE KRIS BLADES BUT HAVE LITTLE DOUBT THAT THERE WERE SOME JUST AS THERE ARE WITH THE INDONESIAN KERIS. THESE PATTERNS ARE A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT AND SHOW THE SKILL OF THE MAKER BUT I THINK THERE WAS MORE MEANING TO THEM THAN JUST LOOKING PRETTY THAT HAS BEEN LOST. AS MENTIONED ABOVE SOME OF THE MONO STEEL DATU WEAPONS WERE MADE BY FORIGNERS WHO WANTED TO IMPRESS THE LOCAL DATU BY GIVING HIM A FANCY WEAPON TO HELP GAIN THE INSIDE TRACK FOR TRADE. SO EVEN IF A MONO STEEL BLADE MAY BE AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN A HAND FORGED PATTERENED BLADE THERE WERE MAGICAL, TRADITIONAL AND SPIRITUAL REASONS TO WANT A WEAPON MADE IN THE OLD WAYS. THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE BASED ON LOGIC BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE THERE IS NO WRITTEN PROOF SO THINK OF IT AS AN INTERESTING STORY NOT PROVEN FACT.

24th February 2010, 04:56 PM	#2
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Blades made from mono-steel are still forged. So I guess I'm missing the point?

24th February 2010, 05:30 PM	#3
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I must be missing the point as well... Said foreign traders could have sold/given the datus or the swordsmiths steel billet blanks as oppposed to making a blade beforehand. This way, the forging process would still theoretically take place by the Moro Panday. Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned. I don't know if said foreign blademakers would have had the same forging traditions and rituals as the native Moro Panday. I doubt it though.

24th February 2010, 07:45 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF THE BLADE HAS A CHINESE STAMP AND CAME COMPLETE AND WAS ALREADY A FINISHED BLADE PERHAPS A COMPLETE WEAPON. IN SUCH A CASE NO FORGEING WOULD BE REQUIRED LOCALLY AND IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO RETAIL. IF A SHEET OF FINISHED STEEL WAS READY TO CUT TO SHAPE AND PUT ON EDGES AND FINISH THIS CAN BE DONE BY STOCK REMOVAL, AGAIN FORGEING IS NOT NECESSARY. PERHAPS NAILS, BALL BEARINGS OR CAR PARTS WERE USED OR THE TRADERS BROUGHT THE LOCAL SMITH SOME BILLITS THEN LOCALS WOULD DO THE FORGEING AND IF THERE WERE ANY MAGICAL OR SPIRITUAL CEREMONIES THEY COULD BE PERFORMED PROPERLY. I FEEL ITS DIFFERENT IF THESE CEREMONIES ARE PREFORMED DURING FORGEING PERHAPS ADDING A SPIDER OR SNAKE POISON OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL WITH MAGICAL PROPERTIES. I SUPPOSE A SHAMAN OR PRIEST COULD BLESS A WEAPON IMPORTED FROM CHINA OR ELSEWHERE BUT IT WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONS. I AM NOT SAYING A FACTORY MONO STEEL BLADE IS NOT BETTER BUT THAT OF THE TWO I WOULD PREFER A TRADITIONALLY MADE BLADE. A DATU MIGHT HAVE WANTED A LARGE SUPPLY OF WEAPONS FOR HIS WARRIORS AND LOCAL SMITHS COULD NOT SUPPLY THEM AS QUICKLY OR AS CHEAP AS TRADERS. IT IS LIKELY A DATU OR MORO WARRIOR COULD GET A GOOD BLADE CHEAPER FROM CHINA OR OTHER PLACES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEM IN BY THE BOAT LOAD JUST LIKE TODAY IN AMERICA. I HAVE NOT FOUND PHILIPPINE BLADES WITH CHINESE MARKS TO BE COMMON AND HAVE SEEN MANY MORE WITH NO MARKS. THATS THE BEST I CAN DO AT EXPLAINING MY THOUGHTS I AM NOT REALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT JUST EXPRESSING MY THINKING ON IT.

24th February 2010, 09:04 PM	#7
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

24th February 2010, 09:34 PM	#9
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I think Vandoo has made some good points. Trade blades were listed on European manifests. I believe I was reading about Wallace & he mentions a large shipment of leaf shaped blades for trade in Celebes; in a ship he is hitching a ride from. I'd guess the Chinese would do the same. I don't know if this is just by chance or not. I've got some Maguindanao kris that, when stained, have a beautiful marble like pattern. I also have some Maranao kris that are mono steel. By the file work, dress, I figure that both groups produced the swords around 1900. Earlier & later pieces of both groups vary in use of metals. So I assume the Maranao has a good source for mono steel, where the Maguindanao were collecting from multiple sources; at this particular point in time.