Filipino/Moro Martial Arts question...

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

As opposed to that, the indonesian-based Silat I've practiced (Indonesian Mande Muda and some bruneian silat suffian bela diri) has a focus on what it deems effective but the focus differs.

I made an error in this post. I meant to type out "Harimau", but I think I may have been watching a suffian bela diri video on youtube while typing this and it got into my head as I typed. Apologies all around!


I have also replied to this thread to showcase a couple of videos. the first is of Telesporo SubingSubing, a lesser-known martial artist in the FMA community. Mr. SubingSubing comes from Mindanao and some say that he taught a certain Mr. John Lacoste (who later settled in california and ended up teaching Mr Dan Inosanto) his style of fighting (The name of which has been lost and which many have dubbed simply as 'Moro-moro style'). I post this because I believe this is some of the very few footage we have access to in terms of Moro fighting systems:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNentRsIkWE


And here we see Manong Lacoste performing a very similar from to that of his predecessor, Telesporo SubingSubing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpsGcT5j2Vg

It's said that Lacoste was a sailor in Mindanao when he met and trained under SubingSubing. I thought it was interesting enough to share with you gentlemen. Hopefully it will give us all more insight into how these blades were used.

[Rick]

I see definite similarities to the footage in Cecil's documentary .
Thanks for this .

[Battara]

I agree Rick. Very similar. Even then, there the Indonesian forms go very low and one of the older Moros on Cecil's work that learned from an older Moro stood more upright more of the time. Also most of the pictures of fighting Moros from the turn of the century through the 1940s I also see Moros fighting or practicing upright.

Interesting how things evolve.

[ThePepperSkull]

Great observation.

I find that a lot of Phillippine martial arts takes into account the range in terms of distance between fighters (Largo, medio, corto ranges; or Long, Medium, and close ranged hand to hand or weapons combat), however Silat styles take another range into account. This being how far you are from the ground.

I was taught in Mande Muda Silat to fight standing upright, crouched, and while sitting. I know Harimau styles have this training dynamic, as well as many other Silat fighting systems. Perhaps moro fighting systems have had this as well.

If we take a look at the videos, notice how both SubingSubing and Lacoste are both standing, and progressively bending their knees lower and lower as if to transition into a crouching position (In the SubingSubing video, he is actually crouching while demonstrating some stickwork at timestamp 2:08). Note subingsubing's tendency to lean into and crouch while striking. In Cecil's film, the demonstrations are also often performed in a range of positions; crouched, standing, I believe it was the Barong demonstration (recalling from memory, I could be wrong) that had one gentleman kneeling while exchanging blows.

The standing-kneeling-sitting dynamic of combat training is being adopted by a lot of FMA schools in more recent years, but this is a distinctly Silat characteristic in terms of origin.

[Battara]

Although I have had only what I consider an introduction to arnis/escrima, I remember being taught upright but with bent knees and being able to be near the ground or upright. I guess bent knees and mobility of range are a must to these island forms.

[KuKulzA28]

Awesome, thanks for posting up the video links! The Chinese martial art I practice also emphasizes this. 3 ranges (long, medium, short), as well as 3 heights... this and footwork allows for one to have superior positioning.

[Dimasalang]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing those videos.

[kai]

I have also replied to this thread to showcase a couple of videos. the first is of Telesporo SubingSubing, a lesser-known martial artist in the FMA community. Mr. SubingSubing comes from Mindanao and some say that he taught a certain Mr. John Lacoste (who later settled in california and ended up teaching Mr Dan Inosanto) his style of fighting (The name of which has been lost and which many have dubbed simply as 'Moro-moro style').

Well, this looks very Visayan to me. (BTW, I love the way he moves!)

AFAIK, Telesporo SubingSubing came from Balamban, Cebu. There are some old Visayan outposts on Mindanao and during the last century many Visayans settled throughout Mindanao. From all accounts there is no open teaching of any traditional Moro MA/Silat on this island (if any); the Sulu archipelago might be a better place to look for genuine Moro MA but even there you'd have to be careful not to run into Visayan MA nowadays...

Regards,
Kai

[ThePepperSkull]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of how widespread the Visayan arts were back then. Although I do find it unfortunate that this did not end up being actual moro martial arts, I appreciate the clarificaion very much. Thanks for the input, kai!

[Dimasalang]

I'd really like to get in to this area also and learn(or at least have a better understanding) the origins of Moro Martial Arts, as well as Visayan Martial Arts. I do not have a firm understanding of either right now, right now I take a style stemming from Cebu...and from class, the history doesn't go that deep. So this thread intrigues me, and I hope you guys can further help me in which ever way. As I posted earlier, I find it interesting that Moro arts seems to be so hidden from the public eye...obviously there is an art, but even today most people have no clue on what it is or what it looks like. So Subingsubing kinda fascinates me as most seem to associate him with Moro arts. I just did a search right now and found this post in a martial arts forum. This guys seems to be well hearsed in FMA history, and makes claims that possibly can be supported. Just thought I'd throw this in there.

This is in response to the poster's inquiry on Waray Eskrima. With regard to that story of Villabrille learning eskrima from a Waray-waray in the fabled Gandara Island, it's a fantasy made up by people who wanted to add mystical elements into the FMA. I've gone to Gundara myself to check for any eskrima lineage and the result: NIL! All I found there were tons of tahong, sorry to disappint Tagadat, but no eskrima! So let's scrap that Blind Princess Josefina B.S. once and for all. If at all there existed a so-called blind princess in Gundara, I can only surmise that she must have been a member of the Pulahan movement. From historical facts gathered, the Pulahan movement in Samar-Leyte area was brought by Cebuano insurrectos that came along with the first wave of Basak Pardo blacksmiths who were fugitives from the Spanish authorities.

There were actually two entry points of these Cebuano Pulahans and blackmiths in Leyte, one was in Carrigara led by the Tabada and de la Pena families of Pardo and the other was in Padre Burgos in Southern Leyte. No less the Filemenon TAbada the son of the first wave of Tabadas told me this story, he was about 74 years old when I met him in 2003. Now with regard to Andrew Abrian who's the only living Waray-waray that I know who is into eskrima, his system is Moro-moro Orabes Heneral. I can only name one person who has a credible lineage of the Moro-moro style: the late Telesporo Subingsubing of Balamban, again this sounds boring, TAGA CEBU lang gihapon! Let us not confuse Moro-moro as a style coming from the Moros of Mindanao...it is actually copied from the Moro-moro plays of the Spanish colonial period depicting the Chritian victory over the Mohammedan Moors of Southern Spain, how many times do I have to repeat this and yet, some idiots continue to insist that the Moro-moro of Sonny Umpad, Subingsubing and Andrew Adrian come from our Muslim brethren's... no less than my Tausug friend of the Bangsa Moro Arts can attest to this fact. When the book on the Bangsa Moro Arts which i and ned have the privilege to proof read a lot of B.S. circulated in the FMA is going to to be debunked once and for all including that KALI baloney!

I don't think Abrian got his eskrima from a Waray-waray, again we have to base these on historical facts that we've gathered in our field research.

Derobio Eskrima of General Ablin must have been imported from Cebu via the Pulahans and the Pardo blacksmiths... one of them was a certain Gorio a Cebuano eskrimador from Pardo who migrated to Carrigara and later married one of the Tabada women. Now, let's dig further whether there is really eskrima indigenous and originating in Waraylandia... of the people I sought and talked with in Tacloban, they learned eskrima from an old man who passed away a few years ago named Gualberto Sillar...however after much sleuthing, I found out that Gualberto Sillar who was one of the late Edgar Sulite's Waray teachers learned eskrima from Melecio Ilustrisimo of Kinatarcan Island-CEBU na naman! I wish i could find an authentic eskrima coming from the Waray's, I go there almost every week and I've even learned to speak Waray-waray like " maruyag ako haim...damo malidong ug madakmol adi Tacloban.." meaning ( Ganahan kaayo ko nimo, pagkadaghang mamords ug bigot diri sa Tacloban!). Tell him not to worry, I like the Waray-warays, but our research so far to look for authentic Waray-waray eskrima proved futile, they still lead to Cebu. No doubt the Waray-warays are very brave warriors, however during the height of the Sulu campaigns between 1635-1644 Don Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera recruited only the best of the Ilonggo, Cebuano, Boholano and Macabebe warriors...and that probably explains the dominance of these ethnic groups in the FMA.

[ThePepperSkull]

And here, I thought I was providing some helpful info when really I perpetuated some FMA-half truth I've been seeking to rid myself of!

Very informative post, Dimasalang! I find that a lot of FMA, because of the lack of a cohesive martial history, is steeped in this sort of half-truth and barely researched history that I really detest. A lot of it I was fed and believed until recent years and decided to joing message boards such as this to clarify which was myth and which was truth. It's very difficult to unlearn what I've come to accept as complete truth, but forum members like you and kai make the experience so enriching that I'm glad I decided to dig deeper.

I found this part of your quoted post in particular most interesting:

Let us not confuse Moro-moro as a style coming from the Moros of Mindanao...it is actually copied from the Moro-moro plays of the Spanish colonial period depicting the Chritian victory over the Mohammedan Moors of Southern Spain

This was also of interest to me, as it helped me understand why FMA really stands out stylistically when compared to other styles from neigboring regions and why a lot of widespread FMA has been attributed to have origins from just a few specific regions of the Philippines:

No doubt the Waray-warays are very brave warriors, however during the height of the Sulu campaigns between 1635-1644 Don Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera recruited only the best of the Ilonggo, Cebuano, Boholano and Macabebe warriors...and that probably explains the dominance of these ethnic groups in the FMA.

[Dimasalang]

Pepperskull, this is what makes this place so great! We can all learn and collaborate together and "iron out" these issues.

It is also a great peeve of mine to hear our history(general or of martial arts) being given in half-truth history lessons. Given our culture, the elders are always correct in speaking(even when it is their opinion), and the young must never question and must obey. Our elders never want document anything in writing...I don't understand why. And look at our history now, it is filled with so many holes, us Fil-Ams have a hard time finding and understanding our own identity when we go looking for it...there is no real reference and things just contradict one another...it ends up making no sense at all. Even older eskrimadors don't want to put their curriculum and lessons in writing...they all feel what ever is in their brain is enough. My only guess would be they believe their written secrets can get stolen? Just think, as it is being shown now, when they die, they take to the grave that great legacy as well. When one master falls, so does part of FMA history. So this is why I think it is important now(in this moment in time) to figure all this out...while there are still some old school eskrimadors walking around. Best way would be to interview and document for ourselves, since they sure don't want to.

I believe the quote you highlight about the Moro Moro plays should be emphasized above all else first. Most, even now in the Philippines, when they hear the term "Moro Moro Plays" they associate it with the war between the Spanish and the Moros of southern Philippines...which is untrue. As stated in the quote, the plays are about the war in southern Spain when the "Moors" from north Africa invaded. Moors is the English term; the Spanish have always called the Moors "Moros" since the very beginning. It is from the north African Moors(Moros), where the Spanish gave the southern Philippine Muslims their name "Moros". And it is through the reenactment of these Moro Moro plays "Christianized" Filipinos hid and practiced their martial art.

After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

Pepperskull, this is what makes this place so great! We can all learn and collaborate together and "iron out" these issues.

Indeed. This is why I enjoy this particular forum. FMA sites tend to derail into petty bickering, as the rules are never clearly stated or enforced, and people in other forums have a habit of being too invested emotionally into an argument.

Here, we can disagree yet still maintain an enjoyable degree of polite discourse. Because of this, I find that we accomplish more. The purpose of this message board seems to lead more towards what is correct, and not who is correct. A very very welcome change in my internet experience.

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.

...or perhaps we can convince him through e-mail to join us here and further enrich our discussion? Both about Moro fighting systems and Visayan (namely Cebuano) fighting systems. I'm sure many of us would appreciate his input.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

Our elders never want document anything in writing...I don't understand why. And look at our history now, it is filled with so many holes, us Fil-Ams have a hard time finding and understanding our own identity when we go looking for it... Even older eskrimadors don't want to put their curriculum and lessons in writing...they all feel what ever is in their brain is enough. My only guess would be they believe their written secrets can get stolen?

dimasalang, i feel your pain

on the non-documentation of things by our forefathers, i think it's a case to case basis. because as i'm sure you also know, the so-called "philippine insurgent records" (the term used by the americans for those docs gathered during the occupation period) are literally several tons of papers (gathered from the fleeing phil. forces from 1898 up to their surrender).

they continue to be a treasure trove of info for researchers here in manila.

but you are definitely right that other than those bunch of very impt. papers, there's nothing much original (i.e., written by filipinos themselves).

of course we do have the spaniards' accounts, via those parchment records. there's that built-in bias in their reporting understandably.

but as one author said, there are "cracks in the parchment curtain" (cf. iron and bamboo curtains of ussr and china). thus we still can see what the true picture was, through the "cracks", in spite of the state-controlled reporting.

also we do have a lot of myths and epics, passed down through generations via oral tradition.

for sure there's a lot of hyperbole and other exaggerations in there. but still our peoples' way of life (including their weapons) are well-preserved in those epics and legends.

on martial arts, i agree with you that the reason why the teachers don't put that in writing is for fear that they might get stolen.

i mean if your life depended on it, why give away the ace up your sleeve?

on the other hand, those battles are things of the past (well mostly).

hence i think filipino martial arts (fma) schools everywhere should agree that they should divulge all their secrets to one another. and the common objective is to take the martial arts to a new level.

i know that is easier said than done.

but if fma is to be made even better, then the old mind set has to be thrown out the window ...

just my two cent(avos)

[Dimasalang]

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.

Just to mention, I have been reading this book. And wow, there is a wealth of information on how FMA came to be. I strongly suggest reading this book if you are curious on the development of FMA(particularly eskrima from the Visayas region) during the Spanish/Moro era. Everything just makes so much more sense to me. Not everything in the book is concrete evidence, but much of it makes good sense and gives one a much better understanding of the overall history. Other aspects not clearly answered should open other doors to look through for more information..in other words, having better direction on where to look.

Just a bit of info from the book. In a nut shell... If seeking info on Moro arts, look to Silat. FMA, Arnis, and eskrima in general does NOT follow any form of Moro martial art. Any FMA art not falling under Silat that uses Moro clothing and weapons should be questioned. Eskrima is a tried and true Filipino Christian martial art unique to only the Philippines and evolved from fighting with the Moro raiders.