Ivory Silver Swassa Barong

Dimasalang · 23rd February 2010, 07:21 AM

I also have my own theory of "status pieces" and why they typically do not have laminated blades. I have one non-laminated status piece(Kampilan) that is excessively large...it is very long, blade at the tip is large, and it is way to heavy for slashing...the balance is way off. Now-a-days in this day and age, laminations on a blade are seen as works of art and we now admire them...many fail to realize during that time a laminated blade was not for decoration but was specifically designed that way to last through battles; blade strength and balance took top priority over the looks of nice laminations. Non-laminated blades were essentially uniform with a much larger variety of looks to choose from, plus the fact you can shine them...can't really make a laminated blade shine. As my status piece has shown to have some type of brass mixed in to give off a golden look and hue to the blade. Having a laminated blade on a status piece may have been, not over kill, but to ordinary and typical for a piece that was meant for ceremony and decoration; and to them a laminated blade may have been considered impractical for that use. Even though the handles, scabbards, engravings, and shapes on some laminated weapons may have been elaborately designed; the laminated blades had a purpose, and that was strength above all else...so to me laminations were not mainly used as a decorative part of a weapon.
But thats just my opinion of the limited knowledge I have now.

Battara · 23rd February 2010, 10:50 PM

You have a good point as well. Laminations would be unnecessary for many status pieces, although my ivory inlay barong does have laminations as well as my silver hilted kris.

Dimasalang · 23rd February 2010, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

You have a good point as well. Laminations would be unnecessary for many status pieces, although my ivory inlay barong does have laminations as well as my silver hilted kris.

Oh no doubt many status pieces also had laminated blades since it would look more traditional as well... I jus think the ones that don't were more likely for show. But I'm sure there were other exceptions also for weapons with no laminations that were stilled used for fighting.

VANDOO · 24th February 2010, 01:48 AM

THOUGH SOME HIGH STATUS WEAPONS WERE CUSTOM MADE AS SUCH THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY THEY CAME TO BE.
I HAVE PROVENANCE ON ONE KRIS WHICH IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE WAS NOT FOR STATUS BUT USED IN BATTLE BY THE FAMILY HEAD IN HIS YOUTH. LATER WHEN THE FAMILY HAD PROSPERED AND HAD PLENTY OF WEALTH THE ELDER TOOK HIS KRIS AND HAD IT UPGRADED TO A STATUS SWORD WITH IVORY, SILVER AND THE WORKS. SO HE STILL HAD HIS OLD BATTLE SWORD BLADE AND NOW ALTHOUGH IT WAS NO LONGER FOR BATTLE IT SHOWED HIS STATUS AND WEALTH. THE MORO ALSO HELD WEAPONS IN HIGH REGARD SOMEWHAT LIKE THE KERIS IS CONSIDERED A FAMILY PUSAKA BY THE MALAY AND INDONESIAN PEOPLE.

Battara · 24th February 2010, 03:11 AM

That was very helpful Vandoo, Dimasalang, and Mross. I think my barong was made this way for one already a datu (same with my ivory kampilan).

kino · 24th February 2010, 05:57 AM

Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. . If it sported a non-laminated blade....
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

mross · 24th February 2010, 03:28 PM

Why is it that many think laminated blades are superior to mono-steel? They look much prettier and I whole heartily agree. I personally love the way they look, but it is an aesthetic thing and has nothing to do with functionality. Laminated blades come about because the steel used to make them has many impurities in it. The steel is folded to drive out these impurities making it suitable for sword making. Users of blades are not interested in how pretty they look but in how they perform. Prior to modern steel making methods this folding process was one of only a few ways to get quality steel. It is my theory that the polishing to show the laminations and other personalities of the steel where done as a form of advertising. The buyer could see the laminations and other activities and new that it was well made. Did they understand the metallurgy behind this? Probably not, but experienced told them that if a blade had these qualities it was a good blade that you could bet your life on. Because they did. If you take a couple of ball bearings (I’m using ball bearings because of the mention in the balisong thread) and forge to shape and heat treat it correctly it will perform as well if not better then any laminated blade. Please note the important concept here is heat treat correctly. The best steel in the world can be made useless if not heat treated correctly. As a side note a ball bearings most likely will be 52100. There is a very informative DVD by Ed Fowler on the high performance knife using this steel. I seriously doubt that many laminated blades would withstand the tests he put the blades through.

hideyoshi · 25th February 2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. . If it sported a non-laminated blade....
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

I am with you Kino. A lot of this Moro aristocrats like to show off their status on expensively ornamented swords that's including the blade. My thought when I fist saw it at the seller's web site that the blade might be a later replacement. Not that somethings wrong with it. Only my tought.

23rd February 2010, 07:21 AM	#1
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	I also have my own theory of "status pieces" and why they typically do not have laminated blades. I have one non-laminated status piece(Kampilan) that is excessively large...it is very long, blade at the tip is large, and it is way to heavy for slashing...the balance is way off. Now-a-days in this day and age, laminations on a blade are seen as works of art and we now admire them...many fail to realize during that time a laminated blade was not for decoration but was specifically designed that way to last through battles; blade strength and balance took top priority over the looks of nice laminations. Non-laminated blades were essentially uniform with a much larger variety of looks to choose from, plus the fact you can shine them...can't really make a laminated blade shine. As my status piece has shown to have some type of brass mixed in to give off a golden look and hue to the blade. Having a laminated blade on a status piece may have been, not over kill, but to ordinary and typical for a piece that was meant for ceremony and decoration; and to them a laminated blade may have been considered impractical for that use. Even though the handles, scabbards, engravings, and shapes on some laminated weapons may have been elaborately designed; the laminated blades had a purpose, and that was strength above all else...so to me laminations were not mainly used as a decorative part of a weapon. But thats just my opinion of the limited knowledge I have now.

23rd February 2010, 10:50 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	You have a good point as well. Laminations would be unnecessary for many status pieces, although my ivory inlay barong does have laminations as well as my silver hilted kris.

24th February 2010, 01:48 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THOUGH SOME HIGH STATUS WEAPONS WERE CUSTOM MADE AS SUCH THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY THEY CAME TO BE. I HAVE PROVENANCE ON ONE KRIS WHICH IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE WAS NOT FOR STATUS BUT USED IN BATTLE BY THE FAMILY HEAD IN HIS YOUTH. LATER WHEN THE FAMILY HAD PROSPERED AND HAD PLENTY OF WEALTH THE ELDER TOOK HIS KRIS AND HAD IT UPGRADED TO A STATUS SWORD WITH IVORY, SILVER AND THE WORKS. SO HE STILL HAD HIS OLD BATTLE SWORD BLADE AND NOW ALTHOUGH IT WAS NO LONGER FOR BATTLE IT SHOWED HIS STATUS AND WEALTH. THE MORO ALSO HELD WEAPONS IN HIGH REGARD SOMEWHAT LIKE THE KERIS IS CONSIDERED A FAMILY PUSAKA BY THE MALAY AND INDONESIAN PEOPLE.

24th February 2010, 03:11 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	That was very helpful Vandoo, Dimasalang, and Mross. I think my barong was made this way for one already a datu (same with my ivory kampilan).

24th February 2010, 05:57 AM	#6
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,018	Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards. I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors. Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. . If it sported a non-laminated blade.... I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades. My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

24th February 2010, 03:28 PM	#7
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Why is it that many think laminated blades are superior to mono-steel? They look much prettier and I whole heartily agree. I personally love the way they look, but it is an aesthetic thing and has nothing to do with functionality. Laminated blades come about because the steel used to make them has many impurities in it. The steel is folded to drive out these impurities making it suitable for sword making. Users of blades are not interested in how pretty they look but in how they perform. Prior to modern steel making methods this folding process was one of only a few ways to get quality steel. It is my theory that the polishing to show the laminations and other personalities of the steel where done as a form of advertising. The buyer could see the laminations and other activities and new that it was well made. Did they understand the metallurgy behind this? Probably not, but experienced told them that if a blade had these qualities it was a good blade that you could bet your life on. Because they did. If you take a couple of ball bearings (I’m using ball bearings because of the mention in the balisong thread) and forge to shape and heat treat it correctly it will perform as well if not better then any laminated blade. Please note the important concept here is heat treat correctly. The best steel in the world can be made useless if not heat treated correctly. As a side note a ball bearings most likely will be 52100. There is a very informative DVD by Ed Fowler on the high performance knife using this steel. I seriously doubt that many laminated blades would withstand the tests he put the blades through.