Balinese Hilt Help Requested

tuancd · 24th May 2005, 04:29 PM

hi! everyone,
dear Bluerf it is not the Garuda hilt of "kris gli invincibili" but Devi with its elephant and turtle. Sorry to correct you. And your Jeckle looks like more "Jatayu", sometime found as the son of Garuda or at as the evil vulture devil. I got a picture of Heckle some time ago

Robt on your sarong the wood cover is missing. Usually Balinese use Kayu Pelet (Kayu wood; I don't know the Latin name) It is some kind of tiger design, light and orange in colour. And there is a sort of rib from the top to the second third of it. I have put an arrow on the picture I have taken.
For your hulu, I have seen one like that but I cannot recall where. I'm still looking trough my documentation and will come back to you, if I can find it...
For the guessing part, I don't recall any Garuda with a tail, nor a hanuman or Sugriva with wings. A Bat is a strange idea but in Bali they have an extensive imagination, so why not...

tom hyle · 25th May 2005, 12:49 AM

Someone said Hanuman flies in stories or something? Could this be symbolized by wings tied on as a garment, not unlike Hermes' shoes? Is there any legend about why or how Hanuman flies?

RobT · 25th May 2005, 03:09 AM

A Thousand Thanks tuancd for the photo of the sarong cover. I knew mine was missing but I didn't know what it was supposed to look like. I will use a printout of your photo as a guide for making a replacement. The other Balinese sarong that I have has the cover in place but that cover and wranka lack the ridge shown in your photo. Had I not seen your photo, I would have copied the wrong style. By the way, does the cover have a specific name? One thing I am puzzled about in your post is the description of the wood as kayu pelet. I had always thought that kayu pelet was a light colored wood with dark blotches as described in Edward Frey's "The Kris" pg 43 and shown on color plate 9. I would have thought the wood you show is kemuning. I really appreciate you trying to locate the mention of a hilt like mine. I rather doubt that the creature is just some Indonesian flight of fancy. It has been my experience (admittedly limited) that keris hulu tend to be traditional in form and/or depiction and this is particularly true of figural hilts so I'm betting that my bad boy is, if not somebody specific, at least connected to some culturally significant site, ritual or occurance.
Sincerely,
RobT

tuancd · 25th May 2005, 10:09 AM

Hi everyone
Robt
Have a look on plate 14 c of the same book. A burly design kemuning could also be nice but usually it's more like 10 a or 11 a.

And Guess who came for dinner last night... I found a cousin of your Hulu

It is not a Hulu but there are many similarities like, sex, wings, crest, bulging eyes...

It comes from L'art populaire à Bali of Urs Ramseyer. I think they just republished it in a new version (english). Urs describe this little guy (plate 230) as "Caratan Cicipan" a devil bird spreading his wings and ornamenting a holy water container. The water goes through out of the penis. Terra cota from Djasi, Karangasem 14.5cm diameter and 27 cm high from the museum of Bali MB 222

It is used in ceremony of purification before mabhakti (veneration).

Hope it leads somewhere...

tom hyle · 25th May 2005, 11:40 AM

And da Cheech Wizard is looking for dat guy

Face seems awful similar, but the wings, or "wings" resemble those of flying/gliding lizards.

BluErf · 25th May 2005, 02:47 PM

Tuan Cederic, thanks for righting my misconception about that hulu.

Its good to learn more.

I found an online story and another website about Jatayu. He was described as a 60,000 year old vulture king. A noble one too, it seems, died fighting the demon king Ravanna.

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD10-2823.html
http://www.mythfolklore.net/india/en...dia/jatayu.htm

Rick · 25th May 2005, 05:56 PM

Another image ;
http://images.exoticindiaart.com/hindu/hc03.jpg

tom hyle · 26th May 2005, 02:49 AM

Cool.
Rick, do you know where, geoculturally, that picture is from? Is it from Indonesia? I see two rather k(e)ris like daggers, and I think one is of a familiar Hindu form (I don't know its name though.....).

RobT · 26th May 2005, 02:55 AM

Thanks again Tuan Cedric for the kayu pelet advice. I agree with you that it's probably the most traditional choice. I will try to hunt up a piece long enough. The demon bird statue (fountain?) you posted has many similarities to my hulu but there is one difference that may be significant. My hulu has a rather prominent set of teeth. Would it be likely that any bird, no matter how demonic, be depicted thus equipped? I know that one of BluErf's posts on this thread show a number of Garudas with teeth but their faces and bodies are more human than birdlike.
Sincerely,
RobT

BluErf · 26th May 2005, 03:20 PM

Thai Garuda sculptures

http://members.tripod.com/~tudtu/garuda.htm

And various other representations of garuda, some are just so human...

By the way, I now know where my source for attributing the hulu from the invincible kris to Garuda came from. If you look at Martin Kerner's book -- Keris Griffe, pg 97 to 98. It described the hilt as an anthropomorphic Garuda with the turtle and elephant as its attribute (not sure correct or not), and the symbols on it's chest showing that it is the 'sun Garuda'. I know this is in conflict with the annotation in the invincible kris which referred to the same hulu as terrifying Devi. Don't know what to say...

24th May 2005, 04:29 PM	#1
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	hi! everyone, dear Bluerf it is not the Garuda hilt of "kris gli invincibili" but Devi with its elephant and turtle. Sorry to correct you. And your Jeckle looks like more "Jatayu", sometime found as the son of Garuda or at as the evil vulture devil. I got a picture of Heckle some time ago Robt on your sarong the wood cover is missing. Usually Balinese use Kayu Pelet (Kayu wood; I don't know the Latin name) It is some kind of tiger design, light and orange in colour. And there is a sort of rib from the top to the second third of it. I have put an arrow on the picture I have taken. For your hulu, I have seen one like that but I cannot recall where. I'm still looking trough my documentation and will come back to you, if I can find it... For the guessing part, I don't recall any Garuda with a tail, nor a hanuman or Sugriva with wings. A Bat is a strange idea but in Bali they have an extensive imagination, so why not... Attached Images

25th May 2005, 03:09 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	Sarong info thanks A Thousand Thanks tuancd for the photo of the sarong cover. I knew mine was missing but I didn't know what it was supposed to look like. I will use a printout of your photo as a guide for making a replacement. The other Balinese sarong that I have has the cover in place but that cover and wranka lack the ridge shown in your photo. Had I not seen your photo, I would have copied the wrong style. By the way, does the cover have a specific name? One thing I am puzzled about in your post is the description of the wood as kayu pelet. I had always thought that kayu pelet was a light colored wood with dark blotches as described in Edward Frey's "The Kris" pg 43 and shown on color plate 9. I would have thought the wood you show is kemuning. I really appreciate you trying to locate the mention of a hilt like mine. I rather doubt that the creature is just some Indonesian flight of fancy. It has been my experience (admittedly limited) that keris hulu tend to be traditional in form and/or depiction and this is particularly true of figural hilts so I'm betting that my bad boy is, if not somebody specific, at least connected to some culturally significant site, ritual or occurance. Sincerely, RobT

25th May 2005, 10:09 AM	#4
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Hi everyone Robt Have a look on plate 14 c of the same book. A burly design kemuning could also be nice but usually it's more like 10 a or 11 a. And Guess who came for dinner last night... I found a cousin of your Hulu It is not a Hulu but there are many similarities like, sex, wings, crest, bulging eyes... It comes from L'art populaire à Bali of Urs Ramseyer. I think they just republished it in a new version (english). Urs describe this little guy (plate 230) as "Caratan Cicipan" a devil bird spreading his wings and ornamenting a holy water container. The water goes through out of the penis. Terra cota from Djasi, Karangasem 14.5cm diameter and 27 cm high from the museum of Bali MB 222 It is used in ceremony of purification before mabhakti (veneration). Hope it leads somewhere... Attached Images

26th May 2005, 02:55 AM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 547	kayu pelet it is Thanks again Tuan Cedric for the kayu pelet advice. I agree with you that it's probably the most traditional choice. I will try to hunt up a piece long enough. The demon bird statue (fountain?) you posted has many similarities to my hulu but there is one difference that may be significant. My hulu has a rather prominent set of teeth. Would it be likely that any bird, no matter how demonic, be depicted thus equipped? I know that one of BluErf's posts on this thread show a number of Garudas with teeth but their faces and bodies are more human than birdlike. Sincerely, RobT

26th May 2005, 03:20 PM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thai Garuda sculptures http://members.tripod.com/~tudtu/garuda.htm And various other representations of garuda, some are just so human... By the way, I now know where my source for attributing the hulu from the invincible kris to Garuda came from. If you look at Martin Kerner's book -- Keris Griffe, pg 97 to 98. It described the hilt as an anthropomorphic Garuda with the turtle and elephant as its attribute (not sure correct or not), and the symbols on it's chest showing that it is the 'sun Garuda'. I know this is in conflict with the annotation in the invincible kris which referred to the same hulu as terrifying Devi. Don't know what to say... Attached Images Last edited by BluErf; 26th May 2005 at 03:55 PM.

25th May 2005, 12:49 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Someone said Hanuman flies in stories or something? Could this be symbolized by wings tied on as a garment, not unlike Hermes' shoes? Is there any legend about why or how Hanuman flies?

25th May 2005, 11:40 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	And da Cheech Wizard is looking for dat guy Face seems awful similar, but the wings, or "wings" resemble those of flying/gliding lizards.

25th May 2005, 02:47 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Tuan Cederic, thanks for righting my misconception about that hulu. Its good to learn more. I found an online story and another website about Jatayu. He was described as a 60,000 year old vulture king. A noble one too, it seems, died fighting the demon king Ravanna. http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD10-2823.html http://www.mythfolklore.net/india/en...dia/jatayu.htm

25th May 2005, 05:56 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Another image ; http://images.exoticindiaart.com/hindu/hc03.jpg

26th May 2005, 02:49 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Cool. Rick, do you know where, geoculturally, that picture is from? Is it from Indonesia? I see two rather k(e)ris like daggers, and I think one is of a familiar Hindu form (I don't know its name though.....).