What On Earth Pt. 2

colin henshaw · 28th January 2010, 08:29 PM

It really looks like a made-up, fantasy piece to me...

Regards

katana · 28th January 2010, 09:06 PM

The blade does look well made....the curves are nice and symmetrical...clean, neat mid rib ....probably a flattened diamond cross section. If forged, it seems to have quality....if made by stock removal..much, much less so.

Its the 'strange' forte area.....either deliberately or unfortunately the pictures do not show where the blade and forte meet, forge welded ? arc welded ? The blade seems to be a different to this 'section' both in the structure of the steel and the workmanship.

If a 'composite' made for profit ...why not just attach the Nagan styled blade to a Tulwar or Khanda hilt ? They always seem to sell well on eBay

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2010, 11:54 AM

This sword truly is unusual and there have been quite a few very astute and interesting observations, but personally I am most inclined toward Tim's suggestion that this may well be a bearing type sword from West Africa. In these regions, there is a very strong element in snake symbolism, which may well account for the interesting recurved section of the blade. It seems that the disc with cross device is something I have seen associated with symbolics from these regions also, but also, cannot distinctly place it.

The inclination toward fantasy assessments is quite expectable, and the often almost bizarre shapes in weapons from Africa have characteristically drawn these views. It is well known that items with the overall appearance as weapons often serve as symbolically stylized regalia in ceremonial use in many tribal cultures in Africa, and are one of the reasons these items are so often distinctly included in its art.

All best regards,
Jim

katana · 29th January 2010, 12:40 PM

Hi Jim,
I believe the hilt/forte section of the sword is West African, I too have seen the cross symbol before....and like you and Tim cannot 'place' it. The 'guard' looks like some of the Akan goldweight designs ....and I wouldn't be surprised if the 'cross' symbol is Akan (or neighbouring regions). Although not in this 'sample' of symbols, here are a few which are quite stylised ...and some similar....
http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra_index.htm

Its the main section of the blade that seems to be the

.....yes perfect for the symbolism of the snake....but seems unlikely to be locally made. Could such blades been supplied as imported 'trade blades' ? ....I think unlikely. Perhaps the blade was traded with the East Coast (via India, trade between India and the West coast has been well established for hundreds of years)... and carried overland to the West via the numerous trade routes.

I also agree with you and Tim, a status sword makes sense, if the hilt is solid iron/steel the weight could improve the balance, if carried, ceremonially 'upright'.

I wonder whether a fellow formite bought this, and if they did, I hope they post it.

Regards David

fearn · 29th January 2010, 05:32 PM

While I could go with an African bearing sword, I've seen that circle on Chinese blades before. I agree with Gav: it feels like a composite piece based on a Chinese original. I'm not happy about the rawhide(?) and copper wire binding. It looks crude. My guess is that the basal half of the blade was cut down from a longer sword, and/or the base was welded onto an existing chinese sword blade. The function of the current piece is what I don't get.

Best,

F

G. McCormack · 29th January 2010, 06:55 PM

12 pounds is really heavy...def. looks chinese, with some recent funny rawhide and copper wire happening. "temple" sword?

mross · 29th January 2010, 08:02 PM

Been looking at this. 130cm by 6cm @ 12lbs. So it's a little over 3 feet and about 2.5 insches wide. Do not know how thick it is but where is the 12 pounds coming from? What is it made out of lead? The given dimensions put it at about the size of a kaskara.

29th January 2010, 11:54 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	This sword truly is unusual and there have been quite a few very astute and interesting observations, but personally I am most inclined toward Tim's suggestion that this may well be a bearing type sword from West Africa. In these regions, there is a very strong element in snake symbolism, which may well account for the interesting recurved section of the blade. It seems that the disc with cross device is something I have seen associated with symbolics from these regions also, but also, cannot distinctly place it. The inclination toward fantasy assessments is quite expectable, and the often almost bizarre shapes in weapons from Africa have characteristically drawn these views. It is well known that items with the overall appearance as weapons often serve as symbolically stylized regalia in ceremonial use in many tribal cultures in Africa, and are one of the reasons these items are so often distinctly included in its art. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th January 2010 at 05:25 PM.

28th January 2010, 08:29 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	It really looks like a made-up, fantasy piece to me... Regards

28th January 2010, 09:06 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The blade does look well made....the curves are nice and symmetrical...clean, neat mid rib ....probably a flattened diamond cross section. If forged, it seems to have quality....if made by stock removal..much, much less so. Its the 'strange' forte area.....either deliberately or unfortunately the pictures do not show where the blade and forte meet, forge welded ? arc welded ? The blade seems to be a different to this 'section' both in the structure of the steel and the workmanship. If a 'composite' made for profit ...why not just attach the Nagan styled blade to a Tulwar or Khanda hilt ? They always seem to sell well on eBay Regards David

29th January 2010, 12:40 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, I believe the hilt/forte section of the sword is West African, I too have seen the cross symbol before....and like you and Tim cannot 'place' it. The 'guard' looks like some of the Akan goldweight designs ....and I wouldn't be surprised if the 'cross' symbol is Akan (or neighbouring regions). Although not in this 'sample' of symbols, here are a few which are quite stylised ...and some similar.... http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra_index.htm Its the main section of the blade that seems to be the .....yes perfect for the symbolism of the snake....but seems unlikely to be locally made. Could such blades been supplied as imported 'trade blades' ? ....I think unlikely. Perhaps the blade was traded with the East Coast (via India, trade between India and the West coast has been well established for hundreds of years)... and carried overland to the West via the numerous trade routes. I also agree with you and Tim, a status sword makes sense, if the hilt is solid iron/steel the weight could improve the balance, if carried, ceremonially 'upright'. I wonder whether a fellow formite bought this, and if they did, I hope they post it. Regards David

29th January 2010, 05:32 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	While I could go with an African bearing sword, I've seen that circle on Chinese blades before. I agree with Gav: it feels like a composite piece based on a Chinese original. I'm not happy about the rawhide(?) and copper wire binding. It looks crude. My guess is that the basal half of the blade was cut down from a longer sword, and/or the base was welded onto an existing chinese sword blade. The function of the current piece is what I don't get. Best, F

29th January 2010, 06:55 PM	#6
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	12 pounds is really heavy...def. looks chinese, with some recent funny rawhide and copper wire happening. "temple" sword?

29th January 2010, 08:02 PM	#7
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Been looking at this. 130cm by 6cm @ 12lbs. So it's a little over 3 feet and about 2.5 insches wide. Do not know how thick it is but where is the 12 pounds coming from? What is it made out of lead? The given dimensions put it at about the size of a kaskara.