Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

katana · 19th January 2010, 01:09 AM

Hi Mark,
I thought this relavent to the thread.....here is one the members of my "Mystery Pile"

.

An Africanised Cutless ....believed an european blade, scabbard and hilt 'style' ....strongly suggests West African, likely Ivory Coast. Patina of the blade suggest some age (possibly 18th C ) The right place, the right time (perhaps) for tales of slavery, of sea faring and of piracy

.....well thats what I would like to believe

Interestingly Spain apparently continued in the slave trade, after the other countries had abolished it.

All the best
David

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2010, 03:52 AM

Well noted Aiontay!!! Gotta love this pirate stuff!

David, very nice sabre.....appears to be Manding leatherwork from Mali, but trade carried into the coastal regions. A friend of a while back was Fulani, native of course to Saharan regions, who was from Guinea.

All best regards,
Jim

Dmitry · 19th January 2010, 04:25 AM

My $.02
katana, 18th c. boarding cutlass blades are not curved nearly as much as the blade on your piece. Your blade also appears to be of far nicer quality and finish than almost any cutlass blade of that vintage. I don't know the size of your blade, but at this juncture to me it looks like a European saber style blade.

M ELEY · 19th January 2010, 07:13 AM

Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword.

Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member.

David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind.

P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?-

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2010, 03:25 PM

In looking further at David's 'mystery cutlass' which as noted, seems to have a blade, obviously cut down and modified, with mounts reflecting West African influences. As also previously described the scabbard features the styling suggesting those of the Manding in Mali regions, and the hilt overall has a vestigial block type crossguard recalling those on takouba or simply the shouldered guard on many forms of edged weapons. The overall impression of the leather covered hilt may also reflect the Mandara regions bordering Cameroon and Nigeria, often raided for acquiring slaves. Perhaps weapons from these regions might have influenced the individual fashioning this weapon.

Now heres a speculative note which may draw some excitement. I have been thinking about this modified blade, and that it appears by the line of what seems to have been one with a pronounced parabolic curve. While there were obviously some sabres in Europe that followed this very Eastern style, the sword that comes to mind is the 2nd model of Virginia Manufactory sabre produced about 1803-20). The interesting rudimentary false edge on this blade (very much like the 'clipped point' of latter 18th century) is also similar to those on some cavalry sabres by this firm, Rose and Starr.

These cavalry sabres were used in the Seminole wars, Mexican American war and by the time of the Civil War, the blades were severely cut down. The Virginia Manufactory blades were deeply curved, and measured a stunning 39 1/4" from hilt to tip in a straight line as originally produced.

It is of course well known that there was considerable trade activity with the Southern states during the Civil War via Gulf Coast ports and the Caribbean, which certainly entered the spheres of routes that reached Africa. To imagine that these American cavalry blades might have reached West Africa via the well established routes from the Caribbean and ports along the Gulf of Mexico seems remarkably plausible.

Although of course profoundly optimistic, it is compelling to think that this unusually curved blade, mounted in distinctly West African styled scabbard and hilt, may well have been present in these 19th century circumstances.

Mark, the Whydah story truly is fascinating, and it seems there were some artifacts, but I cannot recall swords. I believe the other slave ship which was found was the 'Henrietta Marie' which I think David Moore told me about. This was years ago when I was talking with Wayne Lusardi who was diving on the 'Queen Annes Revenge', Blackbeards ship. I was constantly prodding him to find some swords....and we laughed because 'all they found were cannons' !!

The Henrietta Marie, if I recall, did have some hilts of old English hangers, and I keep thinking of the 'hilt spur' which seems to be from such English hangers of the Hounslow types.

Wish I could say I have the pirate resources here in the jolly bookmobile

..but that map was in me trusty google!!

All the best,
Jim

attached Virginia Manufactory 2nd type (1801-1820) in orig form

katana · 20th January 2010, 12:03 AM

Hi Jim,
interesting theory Holmes

I didn't intend to hijack Mark's thread, but because I would dearly love to 'promote' this sabre from the mystery pile to the 'could possibly be' pile, I will start another thread.

Never really thought of 'The Americas' influences, possibly occuring in Western Africa.
I wonder whether places like Cuba etc may have had a small fleet of 'slavers'.....possibly partially crewed with slaves or 'trustees'

There is the possibility,however remote, that Mark's sword is a Spanish colonial piece...perhaps re-hilted in Africa or rehilted by an African slave. Many Africans captured would have had skills or trades ....some could have been blacksmiths

Best
David

Rick · 20th January 2010, 01:14 AM

Ahh, the Whydah Galley .

My lips ae sealed ......... LOLZ !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword.

Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member.

David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind.

P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?-

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2010, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Ahh, the Whydah Galley .

My lips ae sealed ......... LOLZ !!

more if the brethren of the sea emerge!!!

M ELEY · 24th January 2010, 08:33 AM

Well, I made the decision to part with the African cutlass (my collecting is only supported by selling off or trading other items) and sold it to pay for a piece on eBay. Take a look-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It is a Dutch Marine sabal/saber circa 1790. According to Gilkerson/Boarders Away, it is thought that the ones without Dutch markings, rack numbers, etc, were imported to the U.S. during the Quazi War for ship use by the newly reformed U.S. Marines. In any case, while doing a general search on Google for other Dutch swords, I coincidentally stumbled upon this specimen-

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=14911

Look familiar? That hilt wrap resembles the one just sold. So, I'm assuming this to be West African or???

celtan · 24th January 2010, 10:22 PM

Personally, I'd rather help them submerge...

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

more if the brethren of the sea emerge!!!

celtan · 24th January 2010, 11:40 PM

Hi D,

Slave trade virtually ceased to exist in Spain after 1760, when all the Islamic slaves in Spain were sold to the Sultan Of Morocco.

Spain did try to stop the slave trade within its dominions, but the American colonies refused to accept this, since most of their local industries were based in slave work. Curiously, the creole-supported revolutions did end slavery in the former colonies, albeit it was the creole financial elite which had insisted on it in their differences with the Metropolis.

Since 1805, Spain tried to put into place abolitionist policies. Yet, even after the Revolutionary Wars in America, it was a colony, Cuba, which prevented the passing of these laws. Cuba was so profitable, that its custom revenues paid by itself all of the expenses of the Spanish Government..! What Cuba wanted, it usually got.

Heck, In the 1860s, the Cuban criollos economic elite even threatened to join the USA if Spain forced the issue.

Slavery was abolished in Spain de facto in 1873 with the outing of Amadeo de Saboya as King, who had persistently refused to take action on same, as requested by the Spanish people. Slavery was then generally condemned all through Spain.

Even so, the number of slaves and involvement in the slave trade for Spain was puny, compared to the US, England et al. Most of the slaves in Spanish territories were in fact acquired from England et al.

LBNL, IIRC, Brasil outlawed slavery even later. And if truth be known, slavery is still alive and well in many regions of the globe, even on our enlightened third millennnium.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Mark,

Interestingly Spain apparently continued in the slave trade, after the other countries had abolished it.

All the best
David

M ELEY · 25th January 2010, 09:00 AM

Hello Jim,

OK, so it was Dutch after all. I guess I was thrown a curve ball with that little sword I had that looked so European being W. African. At least I've learned much about certain types of African swords copying patterns of the west.
Yes, Gilkerson's books are trusted titles for naval weapons. I still hope to someday purchase a copy of Sim Comfort's Naval swords and Dirks, once it's price drops below $300!

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2010, 08:26 PM

Very well explained and well placed notes and great perspective on the pirate and slaving topics Manolo!! Your knowledge in the history of these regions is always impressive, and I always appreciate the detail you add.

Mark, curves are pretty much to be expected

look at the outcome with my 'Confederate' adventure with the West African sword moved to the companion thread, Dmitry has presented what appears to be the perfect blade source....oh well. I sorta liked the Confederate idea....but I guess it's better for movie scripts

The Sim Comfort book is definitely something to aspire to, but I fear these type books dont usually come down, unless they get reprints or subsequent editions.

All best regards,
Jim

Dmitry · 25th January 2010, 10:59 PM

Sim Comfort's book will never come down in price, unless you manage to track one down on a used market. It will only go out in price, once it sells out. Complete 2 vol. Annis and May sets routinely go for $500 today.

M ELEY · 26th January 2010, 12:40 AM

I did like your theory of a Confederate origin and I still feel strongly that ALL opinions and theories should be entertained until something difinitive can be suggested. Regardless, that is a very cool sword. Civil War is not my specialty, so I watched the thread with much interest, if nothing valuable to add. I still enjoy the detective work involved in all of these threads. That's half the fun after all...

Dmitry, I have no doubt you are probably right. Sooooo...do you happen to have a used copy of Sim's book? (

). Jus' kiddin.

BTW, the sword arrived today and it's a nice piece. Happy with it despite the damage to the guard. It is the Dutch Marine. The original pattern with 3 barred hilt can be seen in Neumann's, S48. This later version had 2 bars. No marking on blade whatsoever...suggesting Gilkerson's (and others) theory that it is one of the 1300 "Dutch naval swords" shipped to the U.S. Navy/Marine Corp during the 1790-1800 period. The Dutch pieces not for export were heavily marked (I have seen a few). The ONLY thing is my acquision does have fullers for the length of the blade. Needs more research as the sketch in "Boarders Away" doesn't appear to have them. Most naval swords of the period didn't have fullers, but again, more research...

M ELEY · 26th January 2010, 05:01 AM

LOL!

19th January 2010, 01:09 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Mark, I thought this relavent to the thread.....here is one the members of my "Mystery Pile" . An Africanised Cutless ....believed an european blade, scabbard and hilt 'style' ....strongly suggests West African, likely Ivory Coast. Patina of the blade suggest some age (possibly 18th C ) The right place, the right time (perhaps) for tales of slavery, of sea faring and of piracy .....well thats what I would like to believe Interestingly Spain apparently continued in the slave trade, after the other countries had abolished it. All the best David Attached Images

19th January 2010, 04:25 AM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My $.02 katana, 18th c. boarding cutlass blades are not curved nearly as much as the blade on your piece. Your blade also appears to be of far nicer quality and finish than almost any cutlass blade of that vintage. I don't know the size of your blade, but at this juncture to me it looks like a European saber style blade. Last edited by Dmitry; 19th January 2010 at 06:45 AM.

19th January 2010, 03:25 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	In looking further at David's 'mystery cutlass' which as noted, seems to have a blade, obviously cut down and modified, with mounts reflecting West African influences. As also previously described the scabbard features the styling suggesting those of the Manding in Mali regions, and the hilt overall has a vestigial block type crossguard recalling those on takouba or simply the shouldered guard on many forms of edged weapons. The overall impression of the leather covered hilt may also reflect the Mandara regions bordering Cameroon and Nigeria, often raided for acquiring slaves. Perhaps weapons from these regions might have influenced the individual fashioning this weapon. Now heres a speculative note which may draw some excitement. I have been thinking about this modified blade, and that it appears by the line of what seems to have been one with a pronounced parabolic curve. While there were obviously some sabres in Europe that followed this very Eastern style, the sword that comes to mind is the 2nd model of Virginia Manufactory sabre produced about 1803-20). The interesting rudimentary false edge on this blade (very much like the 'clipped point' of latter 18th century) is also similar to those on some cavalry sabres by this firm, Rose and Starr. These cavalry sabres were used in the Seminole wars, Mexican American war and by the time of the Civil War, the blades were severely cut down. The Virginia Manufactory blades were deeply curved, and measured a stunning 39 1/4" from hilt to tip in a straight line as originally produced. It is of course well known that there was considerable trade activity with the Southern states during the Civil War via Gulf Coast ports and the Caribbean, which certainly entered the spheres of routes that reached Africa. To imagine that these American cavalry blades might have reached West Africa via the well established routes from the Caribbean and ports along the Gulf of Mexico seems remarkably plausible. Although of course profoundly optimistic, it is compelling to think that this unusually curved blade, mounted in distinctly West African styled scabbard and hilt, may well have been present in these 19th century circumstances. Mark, the Whydah story truly is fascinating, and it seems there were some artifacts, but I cannot recall swords. I believe the other slave ship which was found was the 'Henrietta Marie' which I think David Moore told me about. This was years ago when I was talking with Wayne Lusardi who was diving on the 'Queen Annes Revenge', Blackbeards ship. I was constantly prodding him to find some swords....and we laughed because 'all they found were cannons' !! The Henrietta Marie, if I recall, did have some hilts of old English hangers, and I keep thinking of the 'hilt spur' which seems to be from such English hangers of the Hounslow types. Wish I could say I have the pirate resources here in the jolly bookmobile ..but that map was in me trusty google!! All the best, Jim attached Virginia Manufactory 2nd type (1801-1820) in orig form Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th January 2010 at 04:00 PM.

20th January 2010, 12:03 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, interesting theory Holmes I didn't intend to hijack Mark's thread, but because I would dearly love to 'promote' this sabre from the mystery pile to the 'could possibly be' pile, I will start another thread. Never really thought of 'The Americas' influences, possibly occuring in Western Africa. I wonder whether places like Cuba etc may have had a small fleet of 'slavers'.....possibly partially crewed with slaves or 'trustees' There is the possibility,however remote, that Mark's sword is a Spanish colonial piece...perhaps re-hilted in Africa or rehilted by an African slave. Many Africans captured would have had skills or trades ....some could have been blacksmiths Best David Last edited by katana; 20th January 2010 at 01:36 AM.

24th January 2010, 08:33 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Strange how life works... Well, I made the decision to part with the African cutlass (my collecting is only supported by selling off or trading other items) and sold it to pay for a piece on eBay. Take a look- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT It is a Dutch Marine sabal/saber circa 1790. According to Gilkerson/Boarders Away, it is thought that the ones without Dutch markings, rack numbers, etc, were imported to the U.S. during the Quazi War for ship use by the newly reformed U.S. Marines. In any case, while doing a general search on Google for other Dutch swords, I coincidentally stumbled upon this specimen- http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=14911 Look familiar? That hilt wrap resembles the one just sold. So, I'm assuming this to be West African or??? Last edited by M ELEY; 24th January 2010 at 08:51 AM.

19th January 2010, 03:52 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Well noted Aiontay!!! Gotta love this pirate stuff! David, very nice sabre.....appears to be Manding leatherwork from Mali, but trade carried into the coastal regions. A friend of a while back was Fulani, native of course to Saharan regions, who was from Guinea. All best regards, Jim

19th January 2010, 07:13 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thanks again to everyone for helping define the origins of this sword. Jim, as always, the piracy trade continues to attract me to that dubious lifestyle and their weapons. I have always enjoyed the story of the Whydah and its connection with the "trade". Interesting how the ship avoided one life of savagery only to succomb to another. In one of my volumes on piracy, it is very well noted that when a ship was boarded, some of the cargoed slaves were offered their freedom to join the pirate crew. I could have imagined an earleir version of this sword being carried by such a crew member. David, very nice piece and while Dmitry is probably correct as to its blade being from a cavalry saber, it still very possibly served life in a maritime fashion. I love the way these cultures used what weapons they had access to to make their own creations. The Berber sabers that used the 1797 Brit cavalry saber blades comes to mind. P.S. Jim, where did you get that cool map from? Don't tell me you had that one stashed in the book mobile?-

25th January 2010, 09:00 AM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hello Jim, OK, so it was Dutch after all. I guess I was thrown a curve ball with that little sword I had that looked so European being W. African. At least I've learned much about certain types of African swords copying patterns of the west. Yes, Gilkerson's books are trusted titles for naval weapons. I still hope to someday purchase a copy of Sim Comfort's Naval swords and Dirks, once it's price drops below $300!

25th January 2010, 08:26 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Very well explained and well placed notes and great perspective on the pirate and slaving topics Manolo!! Your knowledge in the history of these regions is always impressive, and I always appreciate the detail you add. Mark, curves are pretty much to be expected look at the outcome with my 'Confederate' adventure with the West African sword moved to the companion thread, Dmitry has presented what appears to be the perfect blade source....oh well. I sorta liked the Confederate idea....but I guess it's better for movie scripts The Sim Comfort book is definitely something to aspire to, but I fear these type books dont usually come down, unless they get reprints or subsequent editions. All best regards, Jim

25th January 2010, 10:59 PM	#14
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Sim Comfort's book will never come down in price, unless you manage to track one down on a used market. It will only go out in price, once it sells out. Complete 2 vol. Annis and May sets routinely go for $500 today.

26th January 2010, 12:40 AM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	I did like your theory of a Confederate origin and I still feel strongly that ALL opinions and theories should be entertained until something difinitive can be suggested. Regardless, that is a very cool sword. Civil War is not my specialty, so I watched the thread with much interest, if nothing valuable to add. I still enjoy the detective work involved in all of these threads. That's half the fun after all... Dmitry, I have no doubt you are probably right. Sooooo...do you happen to have a used copy of Sim's book? ( ). Jus' kiddin. BTW, the sword arrived today and it's a nice piece. Happy with it despite the damage to the guard. It is the Dutch Marine. The original pattern with 3 barred hilt can be seen in Neumann's, S48. This later version had 2 bars. No marking on blade whatsoever...suggesting Gilkerson's (and others) theory that it is one of the 1300 "Dutch naval swords" shipped to the U.S. Navy/Marine Corp during the 1790-1800 period. The Dutch pieces not for export were heavily marked (I have seen a few). The ONLY thing is my acquision does have fullers for the length of the blade. Needs more research as the sketch in "Boarders Away" doesn't appear to have them. Most naval swords of the period didn't have fullers, but again, more research...

26th January 2010, 05:01 AM	#16
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	LOL!