Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

celtan · 12th January 2010, 11:50 AM

Eley,the Canaries are a Spanish province. I don't think that rapiers were still in vogue during the 19th C, although the small-sword did make it until the 1820s.

BTW, I don't seem to recall any roperas/rapiers ever been made in Mexico, although I believe some putting together/repairs of Blades and perhaps even hilts, imported from Spain did take place.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thank you gents once again for responding,

David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well.

Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo!

M ELEY · 12th January 2010, 12:00 PM

Hello Manolo,

I was referring to earlier rapiers (colonial Spanish, pre-1830) that were used in the later periods (I recall up to mid-century). I didn't realize, however, that no Mexican rapiers made. I recall seeing one attributed to a Mexican governor made in 1880 at an exclusive auction house via online recently. Perhaps it was more of a customized item reflecting back on a more Romantic time-period?

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2010, 12:55 PM

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's.
The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites

as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures.

As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers.

I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research.

While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon.

I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's.

All very best regards,
Jim

celtan · 12th January 2010, 04:16 PM

Jim, you own one? A picture, a picture!

Hi Jim and Eley,

The Bilb(a)o was a cheap cuphilt heavy-bladed sword, made for export in Northern Spain, and meant mostly to be sent and sold in America.

Roperas/Rapiers with lasso-guards were made until 1650-80s, and the cup-hilted rapiers were made until about 1710 or so. Subsequent blades were sturdier, or used in the much shorter small-swords. They can not be considered true rapiers. For virtually all purposes, there were no rapiers in the 19th C, although some subsisted in use during the _very early_ 18th C. Granted, some small-sword blades look the part, but are much shorter.

Jim, the quality of the blade is paramount to a sword. Which is the reason this part of the sword was made only in certain places such as Toledo, Solingen, Albacete, Klingenthal, Birmingham, Barcelona, Wyra Bruk etc... and exported. I don't know of any such place in America, but I would love to hear and learn more on the subject..!

Best regards,

M

(BTW, I think some blades were also found at the "Caballo" wreck.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's.
The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites

as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures.

As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers.

I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research.

While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon.

I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's.

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2010, 07:00 PM

Hi Manolo,
Yes I do have one, but it is pretty simple, I'll try to find a photo of it if I have one in the files. Actually I havent seen it in years.
Excellent synopsis on these swords! and well put about the blades. That name 'Caballo' rings a bell, but I havent seen notes on that shipwreck in years either....all I remember was a group of blades, many with 'Jesus' on one side in the central fuller, and 'Maria' one the other same place. I'm pretty sure these blades could have been Solingen made, and possibly later than the end of the 17th century that I once assumed. They were all narrow rapier blades though.

The same situation presented itself when countless numbers of the Solingen produced 'dragoon' blades began being shipped, with 'Draw me without Reason' etc. mottos on the blades about the 1760's.

You are right about the rapiers, whose blades definitely did become much stouter into the 18th century, especially as they came into the military perspective from the extremely long civilian duelling weapons. As with terminology and its application, it is often difficult to determine with weapons and in many, if not most cases, semantics do prevail.

Very best regards,
Jim

12th January 2010, 12:00 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hello Manolo, I was referring to earlier rapiers (colonial Spanish, pre-1830) that were used in the later periods (I recall up to mid-century). I didn't realize, however, that no Mexican rapiers made. I recall seeing one attributed to a Mexican governor made in 1880 at an exclusive auction house via online recently. Perhaps it was more of a customized item reflecting back on a more Romantic time-period?

12th January 2010, 12:55 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Hi Mark, Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's. The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures. As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers. I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research. While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon. I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's. All very best regards, Jim

12th January 2010, 07:00 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Hi Manolo, Yes I do have one, but it is pretty simple, I'll try to find a photo of it if I have one in the files. Actually I havent seen it in years. Excellent synopsis on these swords! and well put about the blades. That name 'Caballo' rings a bell, but I havent seen notes on that shipwreck in years either....all I remember was a group of blades, many with 'Jesus' on one side in the central fuller, and 'Maria' one the other same place. I'm pretty sure these blades could have been Solingen made, and possibly later than the end of the 17th century that I once assumed. They were all narrow rapier blades though. The same situation presented itself when countless numbers of the Solingen produced 'dragoon' blades began being shipped, with 'Draw me without Reason' etc. mottos on the blades about the 1760's. You are right about the rapiers, whose blades definitely did become much stouter into the 18th century, especially as they came into the military perspective from the extremely long civilian duelling weapons. As with terminology and its application, it is often difficult to determine with weapons and in many, if not most cases, semantics do prevail. Very best regards, Jim