Balinese Hilt Help Requested

BluErf · 22nd May 2005, 02:55 AM

Yep, the hilt does look like bat. My initial thoughts were more based on the seemingly feathered wings and the legs. I don't think the legs are human at all. Human legs don't bend forward at the knee like a bat's, or eagle's, for that matter.

The other thing is, Garuda is sometimes not depicted with a bird's face, like these couple of images I found online of Garuda carvings in temples. There's also a Balinese hilt in the small red book "The invincible kris" which depicts garuda with a 'snout' rather than a full beak.

But, I also found a bat image which looks physiologically very similar to the hilt shown here, down to the 'knob'

The hairdo is funny, or could it be a crown? Or this hilt could be one of the fancier forms carved in Bali during its post WWII "Renaissance" where new forms of old icons emerge. I had Balinese hilt depiciting Garuda which looked like Heckle and Jeckle.

BluErf · 22nd May 2005, 03:03 AM

Here's the garuda hilt from the invincible kris.

Taking a closer look at the bat picture above, can't help but notice that even in the bat, the leg knee joints do bend in a similar fashion like human's, just that the leg has been 'rotated' 180 degrees to support the wing membrane. The knee joints bend in the opposite direction compared to birds.

But anyway, there's always a possibility that the artist had taken some artistic license on the physiological aspect of the animal form that he had intended to depict, and so strict comparisons with what we actually see in nature may not be a completely viable route to take to discern what this deity/animal form was supposed to be.

VANDOO · 22nd May 2005, 03:44 PM

IAN I TOO HAVE LISTENED TO BE BEAUTIFUL SINGING OF THE FLYING FOX AND THE LOVELY CROONING OF THE MUTTON BIRDS

SEARCH FOR FLYING FOX ON GOOGLE AND THEN SELECT FLYING FOXES IN AUSTRALIA THERE IS A SOUND BITE WHERE YOU CAN GO NOSTALGIC AND LISTEN TO THE FRUIT BATS, LOVELY FOR SLEEPING ENJOY

IN SOME SOCIETYS THE BATS ARE CONSIDERED A DELICY BUT LIKE THE DURIAN FRUIT THEY ARE QUITE PUNGENT. IT IS ALSO A GOOD PLACE TO LOOK FOR LARGE SNAKES AROUND THEIR SLEEPING CAMPS AS IT IS A SURE FOOD SOURCE, VERY STINKY THOUGH.

Ian · 22nd May 2005, 04:29 PM

Vandoo:

Thanks for that link. The sweet tones of the fruit bat are hard to forget!

They would definitely be an "acquired taste."

The variety that we saw mostly in Sydney was the black fruit bat. And they were big bats. Interesting to note the mystical properties attributed to eating bats, which are still considered a delicacy among indigenous populations.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IAN I TOO HAVE LISTENED TO BE BEAUTIFUL SINGING OF THE FLYING FOX AND THE LOVELY CROONING OF THE MUTTON BIRDS

SEARCH FOR FLYING FOX ON GOOGLE AND THEN SELECT FLYING FOXES IN AUSTRALIA THERE IS A SOUND BITE WHERE YOU CAN GO NOSTALGIC AND LISTEN TO THE FRUIT BATS, LOVELY FOR SLEEPING ENJOY

IN SOME SOCIETYS THE BATS ARE CONSIDERED A DELICY BUT LIKE THE DURIAN FRUIT THEY ARE QUITE PUNGENT. IT IS ALSO A GOOD PLACE TO LOOK FOR LARGE SNAKES AROUND THEIR SLEEPING CAMPS AS IT IS A SURE FOOD SOURCE, VERY STINKY THOUGH.

tom hyle · 22nd May 2005, 11:12 PM

Even a bird's leg bends like a human's; just in different proportions. Consider the familiar dead chicken. The hind leg has a thigh; cognate of our thigh, with a single long bone that swings off the side of the pelvis. Jointed to it is the "drumstick" which swings back, just as our lower leg does, and has a greater and lesser long bone, just as our lower leg does. The third long part of the leg, the one that bends forward and is usually cut off before cooking in N America, is as with many quadrupeds, an elongated foot. The carving shows this as well; the leg clearly is attached at the buttocks; it goes forward, passing thru a binding (?) of some kind, comes to a rounded point, presumeably a joint, but no details of the inside of the bend; then the leg bends back, passing thru the same binding; then it comes to a similar rounded point which IS an explicit joint, the binding not being in the way of this one, and the leg/foot bends forward to end in claws. It's this whole bound knee thing, and the harnessy look of the stripes on sides arms and legs that makes me think the figure is depicted as wearing a disquise or something.
The face looks a LOT like that bat photo, except the pompadour.

BluErf · 23rd May 2005, 01:08 AM

Thanks for pointing out the subtleties, Tom. Looks like I need to brush up on my animal anatomy.

http://www.edugraphics.net/ga15-birds/ga150-ch.htm

tuancd · 24th May 2005, 04:29 PM

hi! everyone,
dear Bluerf it is not the Garuda hilt of "kris gli invincibili" but Devi with its elephant and turtle. Sorry to correct you. And your Jeckle looks like more "Jatayu", sometime found as the son of Garuda or at as the evil vulture devil. I got a picture of Heckle some time ago

Robt on your sarong the wood cover is missing. Usually Balinese use Kayu Pelet (Kayu wood; I don't know the Latin name) It is some kind of tiger design, light and orange in colour. And there is a sort of rib from the top to the second third of it. I have put an arrow on the picture I have taken.
For your hulu, I have seen one like that but I cannot recall where. I'm still looking trough my documentation and will come back to you, if I can find it...
For the guessing part, I don't recall any Garuda with a tail, nor a hanuman or Sugriva with wings. A Bat is a strange idea but in Bali they have an extensive imagination, so why not...

22nd May 2005, 02:55 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yep, the hilt does look like bat. My initial thoughts were more based on the seemingly feathered wings and the legs. I don't think the legs are human at all. Human legs don't bend forward at the knee like a bat's, or eagle's, for that matter. The other thing is, Garuda is sometimes not depicted with a bird's face, like these couple of images I found online of Garuda carvings in temples. There's also a Balinese hilt in the small red book "The invincible kris" which depicts garuda with a 'snout' rather than a full beak. But, I also found a bat image which looks physiologically very similar to the hilt shown here, down to the 'knob' The hairdo is funny, or could it be a crown? Or this hilt could be one of the fancier forms carved in Bali during its post WWII "Renaissance" where new forms of old icons emerge. I had Balinese hilt depiciting Garuda which looked like Heckle and Jeckle. Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 03:03 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Here's the garuda hilt from the invincible kris. Taking a closer look at the bat picture above, can't help but notice that even in the bat, the leg knee joints do bend in a similar fashion like human's, just that the leg has been 'rotated' 180 degrees to support the wing membrane. The knee joints bend in the opposite direction compared to birds. But anyway, there's always a possibility that the artist had taken some artistic license on the physiological aspect of the animal form that he had intended to depict, and so strict comparisons with what we actually see in nature may not be a completely viable route to take to discern what this deity/animal form was supposed to be. Attached Images

23rd May 2005, 01:08 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks for pointing out the subtleties, Tom. Looks like I need to brush up on my animal anatomy. http://www.edugraphics.net/ga15-birds/ga150-ch.htm Attached Images Last edited by BluErf; 23rd May 2005 at 01:20 AM.

24th May 2005, 04:29 PM	#7
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	hi! everyone, dear Bluerf it is not the Garuda hilt of "kris gli invincibili" but Devi with its elephant and turtle. Sorry to correct you. And your Jeckle looks like more "Jatayu", sometime found as the son of Garuda or at as the evil vulture devil. I got a picture of Heckle some time ago Robt on your sarong the wood cover is missing. Usually Balinese use Kayu Pelet (Kayu wood; I don't know the Latin name) It is some kind of tiger design, light and orange in colour. And there is a sort of rib from the top to the second third of it. I have put an arrow on the picture I have taken. For your hulu, I have seen one like that but I cannot recall where. I'm still looking trough my documentation and will come back to you, if I can find it... For the guessing part, I don't recall any Garuda with a tail, nor a hanuman or Sugriva with wings. A Bat is a strange idea but in Bali they have an extensive imagination, so why not... Attached Images

22nd May 2005, 03:44 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IAN I TOO HAVE LISTENED TO BE BEAUTIFUL SINGING OF THE FLYING FOX AND THE LOVELY CROONING OF THE MUTTON BIRDS SEARCH FOR FLYING FOX ON GOOGLE AND THEN SELECT FLYING FOXES IN AUSTRALIA THERE IS A SOUND BITE WHERE YOU CAN GO NOSTALGIC AND LISTEN TO THE FRUIT BATS, LOVELY FOR SLEEPING ENJOY IN SOME SOCIETYS THE BATS ARE CONSIDERED A DELICY BUT LIKE THE DURIAN FRUIT THEY ARE QUITE PUNGENT. IT IS ALSO A GOOD PLACE TO LOOK FOR LARGE SNAKES AROUND THEIR SLEEPING CAMPS AS IT IS A SURE FOOD SOURCE, VERY STINKY THOUGH.

22nd May 2005, 11:12 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Even a bird's leg bends like a human's; just in different proportions. Consider the familiar dead chicken. The hind leg has a thigh; cognate of our thigh, with a single long bone that swings off the side of the pelvis. Jointed to it is the "drumstick" which swings back, just as our lower leg does, and has a greater and lesser long bone, just as our lower leg does. The third long part of the leg, the one that bends forward and is usually cut off before cooking in N America, is as with many quadrupeds, an elongated foot. The carving shows this as well; the leg clearly is attached at the buttocks; it goes forward, passing thru a binding (?) of some kind, comes to a rounded point, presumeably a joint, but no details of the inside of the bend; then the leg bends back, passing thru the same binding; then it comes to a similar rounded point which IS an explicit joint, the binding not being in the way of this one, and the leg/foot bends forward to end in claws. It's this whole bound knee thing, and the harnessy look of the stripes on sides arms and legs that makes me think the figure is depicted as wearing a disquise or something. The face looks a LOT like that bat photo, except the pompadour.