Unsusual hilt

guwaya · 2nd January 2010, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The former owner of this hilt passed away more than twenty years ago and the family decide some time ago to sell this collection. There are no further informations when and where this hilt is collected, sorry.

A common story - and: "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts.

I aggree with BluErf:
"Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful."

guwaya

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2010, 04:25 AM

In respect of the age of this hilt, I find that a digital photograph viewed on a PC screen is in no way adequate for me to form an opinion.

It may be relatively old, it may be relatively new. I have no opinion at this time.

Guwaya

Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued.

If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Naga Sasra · 2nd January 2010, 01:49 PM

Guwaya

I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following.

Is there any published book on Hulu Keris you would consider the foremost reference material available on the subject

I am eager to continue the learning process, and look forward to your answer.

Thank you,
Erik

guwaya · 3rd January 2010, 03:31 AM

Guwaya

Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued.

If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book?

[/QUOTE]

Naga Sasra:

I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following.

Alan G. Maisey & Naga Sasra:

I don't think that this is the right place to start a discussion about reference literature - on the other hand this is the second time in a short while somebody is searching for informations for a friend or a friend of a friend who is searching for answers but finally does not want to open his source - so it might be ok. once.

I am not a teacher and I also don't want to be one. Finally everybody has to decide himselve what he views as a reference-book. Me for myself I adjust a certain demand to a book handled as a reference work. A reference book should contain useful facts, it should be a book you can refer for authoritative facts. It should be a book of facts which you look at to discover particular information and its cause is that the information is quickly found if needed. (For more please google).

Under this aspect I cannot accept HULU KERIS as a reference book because of the lack of information. The lack that there isn't any book else is no criterion to take whatever is as a reference book. For me HULU KERIS is just an introductional overview of some ragam-ragam hulu keris to give an impression how many different forms there are and to which region they might be attributed to.

The book from Zonnefeld about the Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago might be a a sample of how a reference book should look like although I am missing here the direct hints at every article to the sources of the information. But its a way a reference book about hilts could be done.

Another good example for good research and serious information but limited to the Malayan Peninsular is the part of the hilts in "SPIRIT OF WOOD".

Unfortunately a book about keris hilts covering the whole indonesian archipelago I also don't know - it would be an interesting challange for a serious field research but means investing a lot of money and time.

So we are in the actual situation that people searching for special informations have to do a lot of work themselves and with the risk not to receive what they are looking for - but this is what the engagement into the keris involves. You cannot just open a book or ask the forum and get the information, you have to invest energy - one's own initiative is requested.

Sooner or later hopefully somebody will do such above described serious and scientifically based researches and then possibly the result will be a reference book about keris hilts over the whole indonesian archipelago. At the present situation I don't see a global work or reference book about keris hilts.

Finally, back to the HULU KERIS book, I would like to come to an end with a request to Alan G. Maisey and Naga Sasra.

If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer?

guwaya

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2010, 04:54 AM

Thank you very much Guwaya for your clarification of terminology.

I much appreciate this revelation of your personal approach to the study of the keris.

I agree with you in that "Hulu Keris" would fail miserably by any academic standards for acceptance as a reference work, and the same is true of the bulk of the body of literature that relates to the keris.

Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly that "Hulu Keris", together with all other literature relating to keris fails to provide well researched and referenced information, however, speaking only for myself, I find this lack of perfectly structured, academically referenced information to be part of the fascination of the study of the keris, as it permits us to carry out our own research and form our own opinions, and all this research and the attendant opinion adds to the body of knowledge relating to the keris.

The ongoing discussion of keris literature as it relates to the various topics raised for discussion here, forms an integral part of our discussion, and our joint learning process, thus it is appropriate, in my opinion, to discuss literature and reference sources relating to any matter under discussion.

In fact, some of the most valuable research and opinion to come forth in recent years has been produced by people who have no special relationship with, nor interest in, the keris.

Guwaya, you have raised the question:-

If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer?

Again, speaking only for myself, at the age of 16 or 17 --- which is when I would have been collecting for 5 years or so --- had I been fortunate enough to be in that Solo position, I would probably have been jubilant to have received such a revealing and perceptive answer. If ten years later I had been so stupid as to have even asked such a question, well, I would probably have been stupid enough to be satisfied with the answer then, also.

Moshah · 4th January 2010, 12:40 AM

Hi guys.

We have to admit that it is really hard to find a really good reference book in the world of keris. But then again our perception of "reference" are actually evolves together with knowledge and experience.

For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point, even though very little details are enclosed in the picture's caption. On the other hand, for someone who has handled thousands of hilts and know better, these kind of books are not as informative as once when he started collecting years ago.

For me, even though not all books are painstakingly informative, seeing hundreds of high-res quality pictures enclosed, together with close up / macro pixs, is like going for a stroll in a keris museum at your own pace. And you can keep coming back any time you wish so.

guwaya · 4th January 2010, 02:39 AM

"For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."[/QUOTE]

Moshah

But then you go the risk that beginners easily overtake wrong informations or attributions. The danger is to become attracted by the new wonderful presented picture books and to loose the critical eye for what is written as it is so easy .......... .

Especially for beginners I take the oposite position: NOT "any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."

Moshah · 4th January 2010, 02:57 AM

Guwaya,

Indeed it is a point that beginners can easily misunderstood and accepted that all the info in any keris book are true and evidence-based.

Most beginners actually are buying stories from people in the keris trade, in their humble beginning. While not all people in the keris trade are that bad, but sadly this always happen. Anyway, by the time they are buying their 3rd keris onwards, these beginners actually has developed their own sense of learning. And those stories of might and magic are not of any relevance to them anymore.

Same goes with book. There are numbers of keris books where the info are for entry level enthusiasts and contains many error (need further editing), but the fact is, it still sells.

How much terror that we scared to befall upon new generation in order for them to learn their way up in the keris collecting world, it is actually a learning process, which is vital. The harder they fall, the harder they remember.

Somehow, I feel that learning something in the hard way is always the best way...

2nd January 2010, 01:49 PM	#3
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Hulu Keris Guwaya I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following. Is there any published book on Hulu Keris you would consider the foremost reference material available on the subject I am eager to continue the learning process, and look forward to your answer. Thank you, Erik

4th January 2010, 02:39 AM	#7
guwaya Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 45	"For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variation "For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."[/QUOTE] Moshah But then you go the risk that beginners easily overtake wrong informations or attributions. The danger is to become attracted by the new wonderful presented picture books and to loose the critical eye for what is written as it is so easy .......... . Especially for beginners I take the oposite position: NOT "any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."

2nd January 2010, 04:25 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	In respect of the age of this hilt, I find that a digital photograph viewed on a PC screen is in no way adequate for me to form an opinion. It may be relatively old, it may be relatively new. I have no opinion at this time. Guwaya Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued. If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book? Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

3rd January 2010, 03:31 AM	#4
guwaya Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 45	Guwaya Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued. If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book? [/QUOTE] Naga Sasra: I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following. Alan G. Maisey & Naga Sasra: I don't think that this is the right place to start a discussion about reference literature - on the other hand this is the second time in a short while somebody is searching for informations for a friend or a friend of a friend who is searching for answers but finally does not want to open his source - so it might be ok. once. I am not a teacher and I also don't want to be one. Finally everybody has to decide himselve what he views as a reference-book. Me for myself I adjust a certain demand to a book handled as a reference work. A reference book should contain useful facts, it should be a book you can refer for authoritative facts. It should be a book of facts which you look at to discover particular information and its cause is that the information is quickly found if needed. (For more please google). Under this aspect I cannot accept HULU KERIS as a reference book because of the lack of information. The lack that there isn't any book else is no criterion to take whatever is as a reference book. For me HULU KERIS is just an introductional overview of some ragam-ragam hulu keris to give an impression how many different forms there are and to which region they might be attributed to. The book from Zonnefeld about the Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago might be a a sample of how a reference book should look like although I am missing here the direct hints at every article to the sources of the information. But its a way a reference book about hilts could be done. Another good example for good research and serious information but limited to the Malayan Peninsular is the part of the hilts in "SPIRIT OF WOOD". Unfortunately a book about keris hilts covering the whole indonesian archipelago I also don't know - it would be an interesting challange for a serious field research but means investing a lot of money and time. So we are in the actual situation that people searching for special informations have to do a lot of work themselves and with the risk not to receive what they are looking for - but this is what the engagement into the keris involves. You cannot just open a book or ask the forum and get the information, you have to invest energy - one's own initiative is requested. Sooner or later hopefully somebody will do such above described serious and scientifically based researches and then possibly the result will be a reference book about keris hilts over the whole indonesian archipelago. At the present situation I don't see a global work or reference book about keris hilts. Finally, back to the HULU KERIS book, I would like to come to an end with a request to Alan G. Maisey and Naga Sasra. If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer? guwaya

3rd January 2010, 04:54 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Thank you very much Guwaya for your clarification of terminology. I much appreciate this revelation of your personal approach to the study of the keris. I agree with you in that "Hulu Keris" would fail miserably by any academic standards for acceptance as a reference work, and the same is true of the bulk of the body of literature that relates to the keris. Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly that "Hulu Keris", together with all other literature relating to keris fails to provide well researched and referenced information, however, speaking only for myself, I find this lack of perfectly structured, academically referenced information to be part of the fascination of the study of the keris, as it permits us to carry out our own research and form our own opinions, and all this research and the attendant opinion adds to the body of knowledge relating to the keris. The ongoing discussion of keris literature as it relates to the various topics raised for discussion here, forms an integral part of our discussion, and our joint learning process, thus it is appropriate, in my opinion, to discuss literature and reference sources relating to any matter under discussion. In fact, some of the most valuable research and opinion to come forth in recent years has been produced by people who have no special relationship with, nor interest in, the keris. Guwaya, you have raised the question:- If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer? Again, speaking only for myself, at the age of 16 or 17 --- which is when I would have been collecting for 5 years or so --- had I been fortunate enough to be in that Solo position, I would probably have been jubilant to have received such a revealing and perceptive answer. If ten years later I had been so stupid as to have even asked such a question, well, I would probably have been stupid enough to be satisfied with the answer then, also.

4th January 2010, 12:40 AM	#6
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi guys. We have to admit that it is really hard to find a really good reference book in the world of keris. But then again our perception of "reference" are actually evolves together with knowledge and experience. For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point, even though very little details are enclosed in the picture's caption. On the other hand, for someone who has handled thousands of hilts and know better, these kind of books are not as informative as once when he started collecting years ago. For me, even though not all books are painstakingly informative, seeing hundreds of high-res quality pictures enclosed, together with close up / macro pixs, is like going for a stroll in a keris museum at your own pace. And you can keep coming back any time you wish so.

4th January 2010, 02:57 AM	#8
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Guwaya, Indeed it is a point that beginners can easily misunderstood and accepted that all the info in any keris book are true and evidence-based. Most beginners actually are buying stories from people in the keris trade, in their humble beginning. While not all people in the keris trade are that bad, but sadly this always happen. Anyway, by the time they are buying their 3rd keris onwards, these beginners actually has developed their own sense of learning. And those stories of might and magic are not of any relevance to them anymore. Same goes with book. There are numbers of keris books where the info are for entry level enthusiasts and contains many error (need further editing), but the fact is, it still sells. How much terror that we scared to befall upon new generation in order for them to learn their way up in the keris collecting world, it is actually a learning process, which is vital. The harder they fall, the harder they remember. Somehow, I feel that learning something in the hard way is always the best way...