hilt material ?

VANDOO · 29th December 2009, 05:28 PM

I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL HILTS SIMULAR TO THIS ONE. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SMALLER THIN HILTS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN A LARGE ROBUST ONE IN THIS EXACT FORM. I HAVE SEEN LARGER MORE ROBUST ONES CARVED FROM THE ENTIRE LARGE TOOTH BUT SIZE IS LIMITED USING WHALE TEETH AS THEY ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN ELEPHANT, HIPPO OR WALRUS IVORY. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MADE FROM ONE HALF OF A LARGE SPERM WHALE TOOTH. AS MENTIONED IVORY WAS NOT EASILY COME BY IN THESE AREAS SO MAKEING TWO HULU FROM ONE TOOTH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DESIRABLE FROM AN ECONOMIC REASON. OF MARINE IVORY THE TWO LARGEST ARE WALRUS AND SPERM WHALE ALL THE OTHER MARINE MAMMALS TEETH WOULD NOT BE LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A HILT EVEN FROM THE ENTIRE TOOTH (I DON'T CONSIDER HIPPO AS MARINE IVORY).
THE SPERM WHALE TOOTH IS HOLLOW AT THE BASE AND MOSTLY SOLID TOWARDS THE TIP, MANY HAVE A LARGE BLUNT TIP OFTEN LARGER THAN THE ROOT. THE TOOTH GROWS IN CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE A TREE DOES AND WOULD NOT HAVE THE CROSS HATCHING FOUND IN ELEPHANT TEETH OR THE CENTER HONEY COMB LOOK OF WALRUS IVORY. BONE DOES NOT HAVE CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE YOUR HULU.
IVORY WILL CHANGE COLOR IF BURIED ON LAND OR SEA, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE WHALE TEETH ARE FOUND ON THE SEA BOTTOM OR BURRIED ON BEACHES THAT HAVE CHANGED TO A COLOR SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THOSE TAKEN FROM LIVING ANIMALS DURING WHALEING ARE PURE WHITE BUT WOULD GRADUALLY CHANGE COLOR OVER THE YEARS AS A KERIS HANDLE WOULD ESPECIALLY IF USED AND HANDLED A LOT.
ON THE SIDE OF YOUR HILT YOU SEE THE BULLSEYE WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE GROWTH RINGS FOUND IN SPERM WHALE TEETH AND FROM THE ORIENTATION THAT IS WHAT LEADS ME TO THINK IT WAS MADE FROM HALF A TOOTH. THE WEAR ON THE CARVEING AND THE COLOR LEADS ME TO AGREE THE HILT IS VERY LIKELY AN OLD ONE THAT WAS CARRIED AND HANDLED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. OFTEN WHALE TEETH WERE REFERRED TO AS FISH TEETH IN OLDER MORE SIMPLE TIMES. I HAVE SUCH A HILT BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO WAY TO TAKE PICTURES TO POST AT THIS TIME. I HOPE THIS HELPS AND THAT MY OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. CONGRADULATIONS ON A NICE KERIS.

SEARCH THE ARCHIVES FOR POSTS ON IVORY WITH REFRENCES AND FURTHER INFO.

danny1976 · 29th December 2009, 06:09 PM

Hi Vandoo,

Thanks for youre deep going explanation on the hilt.
Personaly i also have the idea its a verry old one , because of the signs of wearing and handling this one.

It,s not realy big , about 8.5 cm but it has a nice weight .

what kind it is , i will just say if some one ask its sea ivory , but for know its standind quite nice on a madura keris at my home

Regards,

Danny

Marcokeris · 29th December 2009, 08:51 PM

About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

asomotif · 29th December 2009, 10:17 PM

I wonder if there are genuine rhino keris hilts.

But here is a nice thread on rhino :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=ivory+rhino

David · 30th December 2009, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.

Alam Shah · 3rd January 2010, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.

Hi Marco and David,

This is an example on a Sumatran keris..
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html

* see other pictures here.

David · 3rd January 2010, 12:52 AM

Wow, that's interesting. Sure looks like rhino to me. Why don't you start a thread on that Shahrial. I would love to see if others also have or have seen rhino keris hilts.

Marcokeris · 3rd January 2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Marco and David,

This is an example on a Sumatran keris..
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html

* see other pictures here.

Thanks a lot Alam for the nice photos
Sure a beautiful rhino

Is the weigh of rhino material more llittle than an ivory/horn material of the same misure?
Is the surface of this material more similar to "velvet"?
Is this material less cold than ivory material to touch?
(sorry for my english)

Rick · 3rd January 2010, 11:27 PM

From my experience Rhino can be quite rough if damaged or scuffed .

The horn can be finished quite smooth .

Rhino, to me, feels warmer than Gading .

The best part; Rhino horn gets sticky when wet; this is a good attribute for the hilt of any edged weapon .

Probably makes great pistol grips too .

29th December 2009, 10:17 PM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Rhino I wonder if there are genuine rhino keris hilts. But here is a nice thread on rhino : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=ivory+rhino

29th December 2009, 05:28 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL HILTS SIMULAR TO THIS ONE. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SMALLER THIN HILTS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN A LARGE ROBUST ONE IN THIS EXACT FORM. I HAVE SEEN LARGER MORE ROBUST ONES CARVED FROM THE ENTIRE LARGE TOOTH BUT SIZE IS LIMITED USING WHALE TEETH AS THEY ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN ELEPHANT, HIPPO OR WALRUS IVORY. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MADE FROM ONE HALF OF A LARGE SPERM WHALE TOOTH. AS MENTIONED IVORY WAS NOT EASILY COME BY IN THESE AREAS SO MAKEING TWO HULU FROM ONE TOOTH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DESIRABLE FROM AN ECONOMIC REASON. OF MARINE IVORY THE TWO LARGEST ARE WALRUS AND SPERM WHALE ALL THE OTHER MARINE MAMMALS TEETH WOULD NOT BE LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A HILT EVEN FROM THE ENTIRE TOOTH (I DON'T CONSIDER HIPPO AS MARINE IVORY). THE SPERM WHALE TOOTH IS HOLLOW AT THE BASE AND MOSTLY SOLID TOWARDS THE TIP, MANY HAVE A LARGE BLUNT TIP OFTEN LARGER THAN THE ROOT. THE TOOTH GROWS IN CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE A TREE DOES AND WOULD NOT HAVE THE CROSS HATCHING FOUND IN ELEPHANT TEETH OR THE CENTER HONEY COMB LOOK OF WALRUS IVORY. BONE DOES NOT HAVE CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE YOUR HULU. IVORY WILL CHANGE COLOR IF BURIED ON LAND OR SEA, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE WHALE TEETH ARE FOUND ON THE SEA BOTTOM OR BURRIED ON BEACHES THAT HAVE CHANGED TO A COLOR SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THOSE TAKEN FROM LIVING ANIMALS DURING WHALEING ARE PURE WHITE BUT WOULD GRADUALLY CHANGE COLOR OVER THE YEARS AS A KERIS HANDLE WOULD ESPECIALLY IF USED AND HANDLED A LOT. ON THE SIDE OF YOUR HILT YOU SEE THE BULLSEYE WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE GROWTH RINGS FOUND IN SPERM WHALE TEETH AND FROM THE ORIENTATION THAT IS WHAT LEADS ME TO THINK IT WAS MADE FROM HALF A TOOTH. THE WEAR ON THE CARVEING AND THE COLOR LEADS ME TO AGREE THE HILT IS VERY LIKELY AN OLD ONE THAT WAS CARRIED AND HANDLED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. OFTEN WHALE TEETH WERE REFERRED TO AS FISH TEETH IN OLDER MORE SIMPLE TIMES. I HAVE SUCH A HILT BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO WAY TO TAKE PICTURES TO POST AT THIS TIME. I HOPE THIS HELPS AND THAT MY OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. CONGRADULATIONS ON A NICE KERIS. SEARCH THE ARCHIVES FOR POSTS ON IVORY WITH REFRENCES AND FURTHER INFO.

29th December 2009, 06:09 PM	#2
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi Vandoo, Thanks for youre deep going explanation on the hilt. Personaly i also have the idea its a verry old one , because of the signs of wearing and handling this one. It,s not realy big , about 8.5 cm but it has a nice weight . what kind it is , i will just say if some one ask its sea ivory , but for know its standind quite nice on a madura keris at my home Regards, Danny

29th December 2009, 08:51 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

3rd January 2010, 12:52 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Wow, that's interesting. Sure looks like rhino to me. Why don't you start a thread on that Shahrial. I would love to see if others also have or have seen rhino keris hilts.

3rd January 2010, 11:27 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	From my experience Rhino can be quite rough if damaged or scuffed . The horn can be finished quite smooth . Rhino, to me, feels warmer than Gading . The best part; Rhino horn gets sticky when wet; this is a good attribute for the hilt of any edged weapon . Probably makes great pistol grips too .