M1840 Saber Spine Mark

celtan · 18th December 2009, 09:20 PM

Hi G.,

No, I don't think so. The other Captain's name was William C. Wallace, and he was a close friend of Col Stewart, there's no way he'd mistake one for the other in his accounts. They were both from Norfolk, and, as a matter of fact, from a place called (sic.) Wallaceton...(Wallacetown?).

...small wonder!

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Good find,

Something else to consider is that the William mentioned, may well be the John W. Wallace of the blade. I have not spent more than superficial time with this but this William Wallace was (iirc) from the Carolinas (google notes of). It is and was no surprise to have folk going by their middle name and not their first (or Christian) name. My family was no different in the Americas of the 19th century and continues today with me often referred to as Alan (my middle name), just as my father Alan was more often referred to as Robert (his middle name). I have come across it even in musters of the American Civil War and company records differing from enlistment lists (the commander's notes sometimes using the middle names). In a sense, some of this also goes back to surname and descendants of the UK history with Mc and Mac.

I would (if me) pursue both Wallaces until better reckoning of the sword might be made.

Cheers and Happy Holidays

GC

celtan · 20th December 2009, 01:49 AM

Got more info from the " Wallace Company Records, 1783-1975".

Seems our friend's middle name was Gallaudette, and William C (Curtiss) Wallace (The KIA Captain of 61st Inf. Va Company A) was his brother. The G/W conundrum seems to arise from a mistake in Norfolk's documents. I suspect the sword was commissioned by the city.

They belonged to well known and prosperous family in Wallaceton / VA, owners of the "Wallace Company". Their plantation was named "Dover Farm" and their mansion grounds "Glencoe" John died at 71 yrs, of age and left numerous descendants. The company disappeared after WWII.

Captain John Wallace is also mentined in "Canoeing Sketches, by John Boyle O'Reilly": Canoeing in the Dismal Swamp, From Athletics and Manly Sport, Boston: Pilot Publishing Company, 1890, 350-452.

Other mentions to the Wallaces appear on the book "The Great Dismal: A Carolinian's Swamp Memoir" (UNC Press, 1990) by Bland Simpson.

Best!

M

celtan · 21st December 2009, 11:59 PM

Hi G and Jim,

I remember asking, but can't find the actual post, about captured swords and etching. Was it normal to have a captured sword etched with names etc... and presented as a trophy? I still have no idea of the maker of this sword.

Best

M

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2009, 11:04 PM

Hi Manolo,
In history there are of course instances of swords being captured and being presented as trophies, and the captured crusader swords which ended up in Alexandria, then Constantinople were engraved with Islamic inscriptions and held as trophies in these armouries.
The Russians were well known for using captured blades as awards for gallantry to thier officers, and these were often profusely etched or engraved.
In North America, I am not aware of this affectation being used with swords, although certainly swords were indeed captured at times. I recall research on a sword which belonged to Custer and was said to have been taken from a Confederate officer in combat in the Civil War. The sword had a huge blade with the 'Spanish motto' and was clearly a Mexican blade. I discovered later that the sword was actually 'given' to Custer by one of his officers who had taken the sword in battle, and knew Custer collected swords, so he gave to him out of respect.
Other swords were taken in battle from Confederates and many were swords that had been taken by them in turn in battle during the Mexican war.
None of these were ever afforded any additional engraving or salutations, simply used as is.

While the sword was never used as much in combat during the Civil War as it may be presumed, it did serve well in almost a symbolic or metaphoric sense.
The most profound example of this was at Appomattox when General Robert E. Lee surrendered to President Abraham Lincoln. Out of his deep respect for this brilliant commander, Lincoln refused to take his sword in the traditional gesture of surrender, and ordered that Confederate officers were to be allowed to keep thier sidearms in expanding that respect. It was one of the most deeply moving occurrences to me of this war as this tragic episode of American history ended.

I would however note that after the Civil War, and with the fluorishing of fraternal organizations, many militarily based, a great deal of regalia was produced. This might well have included swords that were either captured or used in significant events or by individuals preserving thier legacies. I think one of the instances of these kinds of uses were in Masonic lodges, where of course the Tylers sword was of key importance. Although the regalia outfitters produced these specifically, it does seem there were many cases were an authentically 'used' sword with historical provenance was donated for the purpose.

My thoughts,

All the best,
Jim

Hotspur · 25th December 2009, 02:46 AM

Quote:

The most profound example of this was at Appomattox when General Robert E. Lee surrendered to President Abraham Lincoln. Out of his deep respect for this brilliant commander, Lincoln refused to take his sword in the traditional gesture of surrender, and ordered that Confederate officers were to be allowed to keep thier sidearms in expanding that respect. It was one of the most deeply moving occurrences to me of this war as this tragic episode of American history ended

Umm, no Jim. Grant included/added a sentence to the paperwork regarding the allowance to let officers retain their sidearms. The sword was never ceremoniously offered by Lee and then refused by Grant (receiving and overseeing the surrender). There may be different versions of that account.

Interestingly, I do have a copy of a letter from a Union officer writing home the day of the surrender. He was bemoaning to his wife that he had the duty that day (A Sunday) and thanking her for the spectacles sent. It was apparently moments before news would reach the west. A letter maybe never sent. It is here in my family papers somewhere and I'm not remembering specifics well. Here he is. No direct relation here but associated through my dad's second wife first husband (his paternal family tree). He is evidentially writing at the very moment the surrender is taking place. I do hope the original (that did surface in turning dad's house inside out) was forwarded to other descendants of that family but another in the process was a bit lax in following through. I did get a copy of it though, on Vicksburg headquarters stationary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_R._Warnock

As to etching, it isn't such a chore, nor something that couldn't have happened at any time. I bumped into some reunion information for the veterans associated with that but have not delved deeply into the Crater episode. An interesting search for someone to undertake, I'm sure. I'm having problems remembering what it was I was taking off to a young descendant for Christmas.

Ho ho ho

Glen

Jim McDougall · 25th December 2009, 03:00 PM

Hi Glen,
Thanks for correcting that, it seems my history wires get crossed sometimes, especially in this area on Civil War history, so getting it right is very much appreciated to keep the record straight. Still, the point was that as an important gesture, these officers were to keep thier swords.

Your outstanding comprehension on U.S. history and weapons has always been clear in your compelling posts through the years, and as I have noted many times, its great to have them here!! Thank you.

BTW, Ho Ho Ho!! yourself

Merry Christmas morning!!
All the best,
Jim

celtan · 26th December 2009, 03:18 PM

Hi Guys,

Once again, Season's Greetings to y'all.

I will let you know anything else I find regarding this sword, it is an interesting subject to research. " ) . Jim knows how determined I become when I get a scent of the prey...

Jim, are you actually saying that swords were _never_ used as an offensive weapon during the CW..?

So Glen, from your perspective I get that 1. No captured swords were etched and presented as trophies 2. This might be a post CW sword presented during a post-war Veteran's Reunion. 3. Alternatively, it could also be a CW presentation sword, or (my contribution to our "what ifs" ) perhaps 4. even could be Capt. Wallace's own war-time sword, etched after the events of the Crater, "to preserve the legacy".

Mind you, I'm jot particularly converse with post-CW events in the South. I imagine conditions for the defeated were not particularly pleasant. MY knowledge is limited to the movie "The Outlaw Jesse Wales" and some comments made by South-American

friends regarding "carpetbaggers" and "Federal insidiousness".

Would it be logical to assume that Confederate Veterans Reunions were not something to sprout in the faces of the "invading Northerners"? I can't imagine a Wehrmacht Veterans reunion in 1950 Germany, or the presentation of a sword to Michael Wittman, or Erich Hartmann, on account of their wartime actions, no matter how courageous they might have been.

And from the little I know, Civil Wars consistently leave behind a far greater deal of resentment and downright animosity than the "regular" kind. Wouldn't CSA Veteran reunions be effectively prohibited by the Victors..?

Best regards

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Glen,
Thanks for correcting that, it seems my history wires get crossed sometimes, especially in this area on Civil War history, so getting it right is very much appreciated to keep the record straight. Still, the point was that as an important gesture, these officers were to keep thier swords.

Your outstanding comprehension on U.S. history and weapons has always been clear in your compelling posts through the years, and as I have noted many times, its great to have them here!! Thank you.

BTW, Ho Ho Ho!! yourself

Merry Christmas morning!!
All the best,
Jim

20th December 2009, 01:49 AM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Got more info from the " Wallace Company Records, 1783-1975". Seems our friend's middle name was Gallaudette, and William C (Curtiss) Wallace (The KIA Captain of 61st Inf. Va Company A) was his brother. The G/W conundrum seems to arise from a mistake in Norfolk's documents. I suspect the sword was commissioned by the city. They belonged to well known and prosperous family in Wallaceton / VA, owners of the "Wallace Company". Their plantation was named "Dover Farm" and their mansion grounds "Glencoe" John died at 71 yrs, of age and left numerous descendants. The company disappeared after WWII. Captain John Wallace is also mentined in "Canoeing Sketches, by John Boyle O'Reilly": Canoeing in the Dismal Swamp, From Athletics and Manly Sport, Boston: Pilot Publishing Company, 1890, 350-452. Other mentions to the Wallaces appear on the book "The Great Dismal: A Carolinian's Swamp Memoir" (UNC Press, 1990) by Bland Simpson. Best! M Last edited by celtan; 20th December 2009 at 02:05 AM.

21st December 2009, 11:59 PM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi G and Jim, I remember asking, but can't find the actual post, about captured swords and etching. Was it normal to have a captured sword etched with names etc... and presented as a trophy? I still have no idea of the maker of this sword. Best M

23rd December 2009, 11:04 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Hi Manolo, In history there are of course instances of swords being captured and being presented as trophies, and the captured crusader swords which ended up in Alexandria, then Constantinople were engraved with Islamic inscriptions and held as trophies in these armouries. The Russians were well known for using captured blades as awards for gallantry to thier officers, and these were often profusely etched or engraved. In North America, I am not aware of this affectation being used with swords, although certainly swords were indeed captured at times. I recall research on a sword which belonged to Custer and was said to have been taken from a Confederate officer in combat in the Civil War. The sword had a huge blade with the 'Spanish motto' and was clearly a Mexican blade. I discovered later that the sword was actually 'given' to Custer by one of his officers who had taken the sword in battle, and knew Custer collected swords, so he gave to him out of respect. Other swords were taken in battle from Confederates and many were swords that had been taken by them in turn in battle during the Mexican war. None of these were ever afforded any additional engraving or salutations, simply used as is. While the sword was never used as much in combat during the Civil War as it may be presumed, it did serve well in almost a symbolic or metaphoric sense. The most profound example of this was at Appomattox when General Robert E. Lee surrendered to President Abraham Lincoln. Out of his deep respect for this brilliant commander, Lincoln refused to take his sword in the traditional gesture of surrender, and ordered that Confederate officers were to be allowed to keep thier sidearms in expanding that respect. It was one of the most deeply moving occurrences to me of this war as this tragic episode of American history ended. I would however note that after the Civil War, and with the fluorishing of fraternal organizations, many militarily based, a great deal of regalia was produced. This might well have included swords that were either captured or used in significant events or by individuals preserving thier legacies. I think one of the instances of these kinds of uses were in Masonic lodges, where of course the Tylers sword was of key importance. Although the regalia outfitters produced these specifically, it does seem there were many cases were an authentically 'used' sword with historical provenance was donated for the purpose. My thoughts, All the best, Jim

25th December 2009, 03:00 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Hi Glen, Thanks for correcting that, it seems my history wires get crossed sometimes, especially in this area on Civil War history, so getting it right is very much appreciated to keep the record straight. Still, the point was that as an important gesture, these officers were to keep thier swords. Your outstanding comprehension on U.S. history and weapons has always been clear in your compelling posts through the years, and as I have noted many times, its great to have them here!! Thank you. BTW, Ho Ho Ho!! yourself Merry Christmas morning!! All the best, Jim