Ancient, armed Indian from Kabul

Aqtai · 19th May 2005, 03:50 PM

Afghanistan was never part of India, but Babur, the first Mughul Padishah of India originally ruled a small state in Afghanistan. Futhermore, going back further I think the Ghurid Sultans of Delhi originally came from Afghanistan as well. Of course many Afghans also served as soldiers in the Mughul army.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th May 2005, 04:54 PM

Hi Rick,

Don’t let the katar bother you, the history is a bit defuse here, but I would say yes, the Indians, from ancient time, ruled over, at least, a big part of Afghanistan, or maybe you could say that they had a very heavy influence over a big part of the country. Had it not been like this, you would not find Afghan governors in places like Sind and even in Bengal, which is a very long way from ‘home’ for the Afghans.

True the katar is not normally a weapon you would expect to find in Afghanistan, but the text says that it is an Indian, so the rulers of India at the time could/would, most likely, have had one or more Indian garrison in Afghanistan, most likely in Kabul and Kandahar, to make sure the Afghans would not do anything the ruler would not like – or what is just as likely, to keep the Persians, and other ‘friendly’ neighbours at bay.

The ‘catalogue’ does not say anything about the age, and when they reprinted it, they photographed the whole thing down, so the text is rather small. One other thing you must keep in mind is, that old catalogues mostly lack a lot of information, and even some of the information they do give, must be taken with half a handful of salt. When it comes to the age I would not like to guess – but maybe someone else will.

The sword and scabbard are strange, if it is an Indian soldier showed, but I think that so much to the north you would be able to find many different kind of mixtures of weapons.

Hi Aqtai,

The Indian rulers were smart, they had different armies, which were used according to whom they were fighting at the moment, like a Muslim army would not be the best against the Persian king as they regarded him as their spiritual leader, so here they might use a Hindu army, and so on.

Rick · 19th May 2005, 05:13 PM

Many thanks to both of you for the information .

RSWORD · 19th May 2005, 10:17 PM

What strikes me about the sword depicted is that it looks a lot like a Dha. The shape of the scabbard, the ball pommel and the grip structure and it is too bad his hand covers the guard to see how the hilt butts against the scabbard but it certainly seems non-Indian, Afghan or even Central Asian for that matter in style but more closely a Dha.

Radu Transylvanicus · 20th May 2005, 01:10 AM

At any given point, no Afghanies were known to sport such martial attire, without doubt this is a depiction of a Hindustani warrior, likely Mughal or post-Mughal if I judge by simplistic eliminational logic, the undergarments seem rather Islamic or Eastearn Hindoo and then there is the jamdhar (kattar) which is quickly eclipsating the fact that he might be Persian and definatelly excludes the very tought of a local Afghani. Indeed Persian soldiers were very common in Afghanistan in 18th and 19th century fighting the locals in endless wars of conquest so the presence of such garments in Kabul is almost certain, however as "foreign" and not to be regarded as local. Equally, many Hindoo troops, from very early Timurid times all the way to the British Sikh regiments were deployed to the area, all the way to the last part of 19th century.
I believe this is just another one geo-historical error sprunged from the classical semi-docent thinking of Eurocolonial-Victorian views of the "fascinating Orient" , this is not a fashion victim, it is a victim of geographical misplacement ; we discussed similar in few other past threads like the paintings of Dutch masters and Indonesian weaponry like keris and tombak to give one example ...
Quick reminders that the artist is pushing his knowledge a bit are the presence of a nasal piece and a ostrich feather over a coif rather tha a khula-khoud and the mismatch of the char-aina plates of armour but on the other hand there is excelent detail on the bazou-band armguards and patterns present on the zirah on the chainmail shirt makes this piece of art a very desirable one...
I quickly reminded I have many similar mild erroneous drawings in my library and here is an example from the 1870 Parisian book of P. Lacombe entitled "Les Armes et les Armures" depicting a fierce display of Japanese battle dress and arms that might seem alright to the untrained eye perhaps with the gross exception of the Chinese falchion rather a "dao" than a katana and the other sword having rather Chinese features as well ...
However they were the "creme de la creme" then at the time and Tsarskoe Selo was, if not still is, the Tower of London of the Eastearn Europe, the conquerer and conquered Royal armouries...
Oh well, those were the times; " O, TEMPORA, O, MORES!"

Andrew · 20th May 2005, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

I believe this is just another one geo-historical error sprunged from the classical semi-docent thinking of Eurocolonial-Victorian views of the "fascinating Orient" , this is not a fashion victim, it is a victim of geographical misplacement ; we discussed similar in few other past threads like the paintings of Dutch masters and Indonesian weaponry like keris and tombak to give one example ...

I agree completely, Radu. The perspective of the "Orientalist" artists can be as frustrating as it is edifying.

Mark · 20th May 2005, 02:23 PM

No doubt a dha. The only reason that I can think of to explain this warrior carrying a dha is that it was acquired during the frequent conflicts between the Moguls and Burma and/or Arrakan in the Bengal and Bihar regions.

It is probably more likely, however, that the artist had a barrel of "oriental" swords in his studio to use as models, and he picked the wrong one. One I remember from art history class is David's "Oath of the Horatii" (1784), a semi-mythical event in Roman history. Detail below:

Andrew · 20th May 2005, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The sword and scabbard are strange,

Not to my eye, Jens.

I think Rick's onto something. To my eye, that's a dha. Even without a complete view of it, it's apparant there is no cross-guard, or even a disc guard of any size. In fact, I think the subject's hand is covering the middle of a long handle's grip, and we're shown a flared ferrule below the hand, leading to the top of the scabbard which, itself, is clearly that of a dha. The squared tip and segmented appearance from the retaining bands are conspicuous.

Thanks for sharing this with us!

20th May 2005, 01:10 AM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	At any given point, no Afghanies were known to sport such martial attire, without doubt this is a depiction of a Hindustani warrior, likely Mughal or post-Mughal if I judge by simplistic eliminational logic, the undergarments seem rather Islamic or Eastearn Hindoo and then there is the jamdhar (kattar) which is quickly eclipsating the fact that he might be Persian and definatelly excludes the very tought of a local Afghani. Indeed Persian soldiers were very common in Afghanistan in 18th and 19th century fighting the locals in endless wars of conquest so the presence of such garments in Kabul is almost certain, however as "foreign" and not to be regarded as local. Equally, many Hindoo troops, from very early Timurid times all the way to the British Sikh regiments were deployed to the area, all the way to the last part of 19th century. I believe this is just another one geo-historical error sprunged from the classical semi-docent thinking of Eurocolonial-Victorian views of the "fascinating Orient" , this is not a fashion victim, it is a victim of geographical misplacement ; we discussed similar in few other past threads like the paintings of Dutch masters and Indonesian weaponry like keris and tombak to give one example ... Quick reminders that the artist is pushing his knowledge a bit are the presence of a nasal piece and a ostrich feather over a coif rather tha a khula-khoud and the mismatch of the char-aina plates of armour but on the other hand there is excelent detail on the bazou-band armguards and patterns present on the zirah on the chainmail shirt makes this piece of art a very desirable one... I quickly reminded I have many similar mild erroneous drawings in my library and here is an example from the 1870 Parisian book of P. Lacombe entitled "Les Armes et les Armures" depicting a fierce display of Japanese battle dress and arms that might seem alright to the untrained eye perhaps with the gross exception of the Chinese falchion rather a "dao" than a katana and the other sword having rather Chinese features as well ... However they were the "creme de la creme" then at the time and Tsarskoe Selo was, if not still is, the Tower of London of the Eastearn Europe, the conquerer and conquered Royal armouries... Oh well, those were the times; " O, TEMPORA, O, MORES!" Attached Images Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 20th May 2005 at 01:37 AM.

20th May 2005, 02:23 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	No doubt a dha. The only reason that I can think of to explain this warrior carrying a dha is that it was acquired during the frequent conflicts between the Moguls and Burma and/or Arrakan in the Bengal and Bihar regions. It is probably more likely, however, that the artist had a barrel of "oriental" swords in his studio to use as models, and he picked the wrong one. One I remember from art history class is David's "Oath of the Horatii" (1784), a semi-mythical event in Roman history. Detail below: Attached Images Last edited by Mark Bowditch; 20th May 2005 at 02:34 PM.

19th May 2005, 03:50 PM	#1
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Afghanistan was never part of India, but Babur, the first Mughul Padishah of India originally ruled a small state in Afghanistan. Futhermore, going back further I think the Ghurid Sultans of Delhi originally came from Afghanistan as well. Of course many Afghans also served as soldiers in the Mughul army.

19th May 2005, 04:54 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, Don’t let the katar bother you, the history is a bit defuse here, but I would say yes, the Indians, from ancient time, ruled over, at least, a big part of Afghanistan, or maybe you could say that they had a very heavy influence over a big part of the country. Had it not been like this, you would not find Afghan governors in places like Sind and even in Bengal, which is a very long way from ‘home’ for the Afghans. True the katar is not normally a weapon you would expect to find in Afghanistan, but the text says that it is an Indian, so the rulers of India at the time could/would, most likely, have had one or more Indian garrison in Afghanistan, most likely in Kabul and Kandahar, to make sure the Afghans would not do anything the ruler would not like – or what is just as likely, to keep the Persians, and other ‘friendly’ neighbours at bay. The ‘catalogue’ does not say anything about the age, and when they reprinted it, they photographed the whole thing down, so the text is rather small. One other thing you must keep in mind is, that old catalogues mostly lack a lot of information, and even some of the information they do give, must be taken with half a handful of salt. When it comes to the age I would not like to guess – but maybe someone else will. The sword and scabbard are strange, if it is an Indian soldier showed, but I think that so much to the north you would be able to find many different kind of mixtures of weapons. Hi Aqtai, The Indian rulers were smart, they had different armies, which were used according to whom they were fighting at the moment, like a Muslim army would not be the best against the Persian king as they regarded him as their spiritual leader, so here they might use a Hindu army, and so on.

19th May 2005, 05:13 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Many thanks to both of you for the information .

19th May 2005, 10:17 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	What strikes me about the sword depicted is that it looks a lot like a Dha. The shape of the scabbard, the ball pommel and the grip structure and it is too bad his hand covers the guard to see how the hilt butts against the scabbard but it certainly seems non-Indian, Afghan or even Central Asian for that matter in style but more closely a Dha.