Dagger ID Needed

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2009, 03:41 AM

I would go with Gav on this......very much Philippines, and the faceted grip is similar to a number of weapons I've seen in essentially a espada ancha type hilt. This is however more in the form of a plug bayonet, a weapon that remained in use in form much longer than often realized in the Spanish cultural sphere. Since Chinese influence distinctly prevailed in these regions as Gav has astutely noted, the alternating quillon guard of the dual 'butterfly' fighting knives seems reflective in styling.
Good points Rick on the thimble potential!! Recycling at work

All best regards,
Jim

Robert · 11th December 2009, 07:27 PM

Hello,
Again I would like to thank everyone who has responded to this thread. Here is what I have found out so far. I've heard back from two of the experts on thimbles that I contacted to get more information on the ones used on this dagger. They both agree that the thimbles date from the late 1700s to about 1850. So if the thimbles were new when used the dagger could have been made anywhere from the late 1700s to around 1850 or even later depending on the supply of "new old stock thimbles" laying around. Of coarse at the same time if they were not new it could have been made anywhere from the late 1700s onward. Getting the dating of these items was interesting and fun but as it turns out with such a wide range of manufacture that it is not of much help on dating this piece.

My next question is who do you think would have owned a dagger like this a Spanish soldier or colonist, a Chinese traders or a Filipino? Thanks again.

Robert

P.S.
One other thing I find odd about this dagger are the five ///// hash marks that are found on only one flat of the grip, any ideas?

Rick · 11th December 2009, 08:55 PM

I think the thimbles fall into the frugal 'never throw anything away; it might have a second use' category .
Age ?
I'd bet 1880 1900, just a feeling .

Five notches ?

Robert · 11th December 2009, 09:24 PM

I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself.

Robert

Gavin Nugent · 11th December 2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself.

Robert

I would suggest these thimbles also came from Chinese traders, maybe used when newer ones became available, most likely originally from Europe though.
I tentatively suggest this as the Chinese traded greatly in textiles and it seems more than possible given the knife styling.
I too would agree with the 1880+ dating though maybe 30 years earlier.

Gav

Battara · 12th December 2009, 04:01 AM

I have held off because I had to think about this piece. I agree that the hilt looks Filipino and what helps is the fact that it is made of carabao horn. It was in Luzon due to the fact that the tang goes through the hilt into the end.

I would agree that the blade is a Spanish bayonet.

The thimbles - would be used if made of silver - as Rick said - "frugal"

Hotspur · 12th December 2009, 11:04 PM

My guess for the blade and I concur with late 19th century and into the 20th century for origin of make up.

http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/fren1887iof.htm

Continental as well, my thinking but the styles easily travel and get absorbed in other cultures.

The T shape Gras bayonet blades are spine to edge, whereas the Epee blade linked is side to side, as is this dagger.

Cheers

GC

One viewer read my modern hafted poinard as a sai

An 18th century blade on this one with quite modern parts, overall.

11th December 2009, 07:27 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello, Again I would like to thank everyone who has responded to this thread. Here is what I have found out so far. I've heard back from two of the experts on thimbles that I contacted to get more information on the ones used on this dagger. They both agree that the thimbles date from the late 1700s to about 1850. So if the thimbles were new when used the dagger could have been made anywhere from the late 1700s to around 1850 or even later depending on the supply of "new old stock thimbles" laying around. Of coarse at the same time if they were not new it could have been made anywhere from the late 1700s onward. Getting the dating of these items was interesting and fun but as it turns out with such a wide range of manufacture that it is not of much help on dating this piece. My next question is who do you think would have owned a dagger like this a Spanish soldier or colonist, a Chinese traders or a Filipino? Thanks again. Robert P.S. One other thing I find odd about this dagger are the five ///// hash marks that are found on only one flat of the grip, any ideas? Last edited by Robert Coleman; 11th December 2009 at 07:38 PM.

12th December 2009, 11:04 PM	#7
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	My guess for the blade and I concur with late 19th century and into the 20th century for origin of make up. http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/fren1887iof.htm Continental as well, my thinking but the styles easily travel and get absorbed in other cultures. The T shape Gras bayonet blades are spine to edge, whereas the Epee blade linked is side to side, as is this dagger. Cheers GC One viewer read my modern hafted poinard as a sai An 18th century blade on this one with quite modern parts, overall. Attached Images

11th December 2009, 03:41 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I would go with Gav on this......very much Philippines, and the faceted grip is similar to a number of weapons I've seen in essentially a espada ancha type hilt. This is however more in the form of a plug bayonet, a weapon that remained in use in form much longer than often realized in the Spanish cultural sphere. Since Chinese influence distinctly prevailed in these regions as Gav has astutely noted, the alternating quillon guard of the dual 'butterfly' fighting knives seems reflective in styling. Good points Rick on the thimble potential!! Recycling at work All best regards, Jim

11th December 2009, 08:55 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I think the thimbles fall into the frugal 'never throw anything away; it might have a second use' category . Age ? I'd bet 1880 1900, just a feeling . Five notches ?

11th December 2009, 09:24 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I meant to add that the are called tailor's thimbles, which mean they did not have a top, as tailor's would push the needle with the side of the thimble, using the knurling to help hold it as it pushed through material. The notches can be seen in the forth and sixth pictures down from the top. I have seen marks like this on the spine and ricasso of blades before but this is the first time that I have seen them on the grip itself. Robert

12th December 2009, 04:01 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I have held off because I had to think about this piece. I agree that the hilt looks Filipino and what helps is the fact that it is made of carabao horn. It was in Luzon due to the fact that the tang goes through the hilt into the end. I would agree that the blade is a Spanish bayonet. The thimbles - would be used if made of silver - as Rick said - "frugal"