It's that time of the year in the Tropics again...

BluErf · 10th December 2009, 02:07 AM

Yep, I'm talking about the MONSOON season! Keris collectors living in the Tropics should dread this season, because it marks the beginning of rust, mould and clammy-feeling sheaths and hilts.

How about let's talk about various methods of preventing/inhibiting those evil processes that eat away our precious collection?

Let me start with my experience. I used to stay in the extreme west of Singapore. I kept my kerises in singeps and place them in a wooden cupboard, with 3-4 packs of pellet dehumidifiers, and change them promptly when they are near their absorption capacity. Even though the cupboard was not very air-tight, somehow the combination of the wood, the fabric singep and the dehumdifiers worked to prevent mould and rust in most kerises. For some reasons, some kerises (perhaps due to worn off finishing), are still susceptible to mould on the exterior and, more dreadedly, the inside of the sheath. This in turn led to some rust if not cleaned off in time.

Cleaning mould off the exterior is easy. The tougher part comes when we try to clean the interior. I don't have a good way, so I use a brush or sometimes even tissue (careful not to leave tissue residues inside the sheath!). I thought about using a blower, but that could make things worse by blowing the spores further down the batang.

Oiling and cleaning the keris is easy enough provided you don't let it rust due to the mould. But I would take care to bring out the kerises only on a relatively dry and hot day, which is not many during the Monsoon seaon.

And then, I moved to extreme East of Singapore 2 years ago...

I did not have the benefit of the wooden cupboard anymore, and could only store my kerises, outside of their singep, in 2 steel cabinets in the bomb shelter which has terrible ventilation. Humidity builds up and you get a musky smell. Fellow Singaporeans living in newer apartments should find this familiar...

Anyhow, the first year was traumatic! The pellet humidifiers didn't work, even in large quantities. A small electric dehumidifier was not effective and conked out after 3 months. Kerises which did not rust before started rusting! (Luckily not my most precious few

)

I sealed all the inlets into the bomb shelter and plonked in an industrial strength dehumdifier (ok, a small one) which could regulate humidity at a preset level (I set it at 65%; 60% was too dry, causing shrinkage in some sheaths!). It took months for the air in the bomb shelter to stabilize. And now for my more important pieces, I also wrap the blades in thin plastic after I oil them, and keep them in the Singep. So far so good! The only thing is that I have to bring them out once in a while to 'air', to oil the wooden parts and let them reabsorb some moisture from the air. But of course, I'm reluctant to do so during the Monsoon season because there is simply too much humidity in the air! Will see how things turn out come February...

Alam Shah · 10th December 2009, 03:57 AM

I'm in the East too.. I store mine in singep and inside carton boxes, which is then placed inside the cupboard.. I put a 'thirsty hippo'.. in each cupboard, according to its storage space size. There are a few on display and these are ok.. practically rust free.

After each handling, I'll wipe and oil the blade lightly before storing..

BluErf · 12th December 2009, 01:20 AM

Thanks Shahrial. Maybe the use of wood or wood-derived product (cupboard cartons) is one of the factors that could help control humidity fluctuations.

Hartadi · 12th December 2009, 02:00 AM

dear All.. excuse for me as a new comer in VS.

I store my collection in a special room, perhaps a bit different with other people store their collection, I'm taking the blade off the sheath, and hang it beside the standing sheath.

The reason is cause i need to enjoy view of my collection, not only the wood (outside appearance) cause the Keris having some parts as Blade, sheath, hilt, etc.

I can attached picture when requested.

Regard,
Hartadi

Alam Shah · 12th December 2009, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Thanks Shahrial. Maybe the use of wood or wood-derived product (cupboard cartons) is one of the factors that could help control humidity fluctuations.

Perhaps.. I also put cloves (cengkeh, Syzygium aromaticum) in a small plate, to give a nice aroma in my storage space.. also I put a little in the carton boxes.. simply because I like the smell.

BluErf · 12th December 2009, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Perhaps.. I also put cloves (cengkeh, Syzygium aromaticum) in a small plate, to give a nice aroma in my storage space.. also I put a little in the carton boxes.. simply because I like the smell.

I have my Banyan Tree incense in the store room.

Yes, the nice aroma makes you feel better when you open up your keris storage space.

A. G. Maisey · 12th December 2009, 06:00 AM

Reading what you gentlemen have written is of interest to me. I've often been in Indonesia during the wet, and I've seen perfectly stained blades accumulate light rust almost overnight. The mildew is simply unbelieveable. If you leave a pair of leather shoes for a week without brushing them, they become totally covered in green fungus. Of course, the mildew also grows on wood.

Fortunately I do not live in this sort of climate all the time, but where I do live poses its own special problems. I live in a marine environment, less than 25 meters to a salt water lake, with prevailing south winds blowing across that lake straight onto my house.

This type of situation will also easily generate rust and mildew, even though not nearly as badly as the Wet in Solo.

I store blades in plastic sleeves after oiling with WD40 that has been allowed to dry on the blade, followed by a mix of sandal wood oil, kenanga oil, and medicinal parafin. The smell from this oil on all blades in a small room creates a scented atmosphere. However, better protection could probably be provided by a good gun oil.

Wood is regulary cleaned and protected with a good quality wax.

A .22 calibre bristle brush on a rifle cleaning rod is ideal for brushing out the inside of scabbards; you can then use a long thin copper tube that has been pinched at the end to create a very small exit hole to blow out the dust.

Scabbards are stored in cloth covers (singep), and then placed into either wooden chests or cardboard boxes. In my house I have only one keris on open display, but I do have a number of tombak out in the open.

Following the above I do not ever have any problems with rust or mildew, but for pieces that are undergoing restoration and are out in my workshop without protection, rust and mildew are quite common occurrences.

David · 12th December 2009, 05:30 PM

Well i feel really blessed to live where i do in Midwestern USA. It is not that i never have any problems, but it is nothing nearly so severe as what some of you describe here. Like Hardati (welcome to the forum BTW

) i also like to have access to my collection so most of it is displayed around my study, though i do keep them all sheathed as for me it is the best thing to do. I do store some in singeps as well and trade out on occasion to have new keris "on view" from time to time. Rust and mold has not been much of a problem for me over the years. I did have some wood (or at least the fine finish) crack on one of my sheaths one winter, but for the most part everything is fine. I try to oil the entire collection regularly and keep the wood clean.

A. G. Maisey · 12th December 2009, 10:02 PM

David, for anybody living in a low humidity climate, and in some air conditioned atmospheres, wood care is a matter of primary concern.

Not only will shellac crack and peel, but the wood itself will crack. I have sent perfect hilts to places like Ontario (air con), and Utah (dry) and have received reports of severe cracking.

The same thing will happen with ivory, and for that reason most ivory collectors I know keep a tumbler of water in with their ivories. I don't know if this does much good, it seems to be a general practice.

In Jawa we accept that certain woods need to be treated very carefully. Probably the most prestigious Javanese hilt wood is tayuman, but an old tradition says that hilts of this wood should never be worn during daylight hours, and that sunlight must never touch them. This is because this wood is very subject to cracking.

I really don't know how to prevent this cracking problem.

I do know that custom knife makers usually will not gaurantee handles from natural materials --- they can't afford to, because of this cracking problem.

I feel that regular use of a good furniture oil, something like the old-time Sheraton, might help prevent cracking, but I really don't know.

Rick · 13th December 2009, 02:24 AM

Funny, I live in a similar enviornment to Alan's; only difference is I am situated on a tidal salt marsh in the Northern Hemi .

You never saw Silver tarnish so fast !

Must be low tide .

We heat with wood; a kettle is always on the stove .

BluErf · 13th December 2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A .22 calibre bristle brush on a rifle cleaning rod is ideal for brushing out the inside of scabbards; you can then use a long thin copper tube that has been pinched at the end to create a very small exit hole to blow out the dust.

Ah, that's a good idea! But we probably cannot find any rifle cleaning brush here in Singapore. Maybe have to look out for pipe cleaning brush.

A. G. Maisey · 13th December 2009, 01:11 PM

Easy enough to buy on the web, and although firearms might be prohibited, surely a rod and brush are not?

If you feel the rod might be unacceptable, just order a brush and thread a piece of 3/16 inch rod yourself.

Something else that might work is a small bottle cleaning brush.

BluErf · 13th December 2009, 01:27 PM

Just to give some background to my comment, the army here uses pieces of flannel hooked through the end of a rod to clean rifle barrels. So rifle brushes are not common.

I can probably find pipe cleaning brushes easily in DIY shops and save the hassle of threading a brush myself.

Alam Shah · 13th December 2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Just to give some background to my comment, the army here uses pieces of flannel hooked through the end of a rod to clean rifle barrels. So rifle brushes are not common.

Errr.. as far as I'm familiar with, the old M16 rifle-cleaning kit does comes with a barrel brush, a chamber brush and a 5-piece rod with an eye-piece for flannel use.. this is what I'm used to do.. for cleaning the internal of sheaths.. available at army surplus stores islandwide..

A. G. Maisey · 13th December 2009, 09:47 PM

Military forces have varying levels of maintenance that depend upon circumstances. For example, when the Australian army used Lee Enfields everybody had a pull-through --- a piece of cord with a weight on one end and a brush and with an eye for flannel on the other end. This was used for quick and ugly field cleaning. But proper cleaning requires a couple of different brushes, solvent, flannel, and a rod.

If there is no need for sporting rifles in Singapore, then it might be a bit hard to buy cleaning gear locally, but rods and brushes are very easy to buy off the net, and they're cheap and light. A thirty calibre rod and brush is probably a bit big, I think. I have a number of different sizes available --- I've got a number of different firearms --- and what I use is .22 and .17 cal.

The pipe cleaners I've seen have not been brushes, and they've been quite short. Can you buy a pipe cleaning brush that is , say, 24 inches long? If you can, that'd probably be OK, I guess.

BluErf · 14th December 2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Errr.. as far as I'm familiar with, the old M16 rifle-cleaning kit does comes with a barrel brush, a chamber brush and a 5-piece rod with an eye-piece for flannel use.. this is what I'm used to do.. for cleaning the internal of sheaths.. available at army surplus stores islandwide..

Oh really!? I don't remember the barrel brush at all! It's the cleaning rod with flannel and oil for the barrel, tweezers for pricking carbon deposits from the bolt carrier assembly. Hmmm, ok, maybe the brushes do exist, but I didn't use them!

BluErf · 14th December 2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Military forces have varying levels of maintenance that depend upon circumstances. For example, when the Australian army used Lee Enfields everybody had a pull-through --- a piece of cord with a weight on one end and a brush and with an eye for flannel on the other end. This was used for quick and ugly field cleaning. But proper cleaning requires a couple of different brushes, solvent, flannel, and a rod.

If there is no need for sporting rifles in Singapore, then it might be a bit hard to buy cleaning gear locally, but rods and brushes are very easy to buy off the net, and they're cheap and light. A thirty calibre rod and brush is probably a bit big, I think. I have a number of different sizes available --- I've got a number of different firearms --- and what I use is .22 and .17 cal.

The pipe cleaners I've seen have not been brushes, and they've been quite short. Can you buy a pipe cleaning brush that is , say, 24 inches long? If you can, that'd probably be OK, I guess.

Thanks Alan! I'll do a little searching for those barrel brushes.

Moshah · 22nd December 2009, 04:46 PM

Hi Alan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The same thing will happen with ivory, and for that reason most ivory collectors I know keep a tumbler of water in with their ivories. I don't know if this does much good, it seems to be a general practice.

How exactly they did that?

A. G. Maisey · 22nd December 2009, 08:48 PM

Ivories in display cabinet along with a small container of water.

Moshah · 23rd December 2009, 11:11 AM

Ah.

I've seen this kind of thing, in a form of an opened cup filled with water, isn't it?

Thanks alan.

There are also old documentaries in Malay which show people soak / wash buffalo horn with water and black ashes. Ashes of what origin, and soaking for preserving etc...i don't know, still too young to care at that moment of time. Perhaps there are archives accessible within the broadcasting bodies.

10th December 2009, 02:07 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	It's that time of the year in the Tropics again... Yep, I'm talking about the MONSOON season! Keris collectors living in the Tropics should dread this season, because it marks the beginning of rust, mould and clammy-feeling sheaths and hilts. How about let's talk about various methods of preventing/inhibiting those evil processes that eat away our precious collection? Let me start with my experience. I used to stay in the extreme west of Singapore. I kept my kerises in singeps and place them in a wooden cupboard, with 3-4 packs of pellet dehumidifiers, and change them promptly when they are near their absorption capacity. Even though the cupboard was not very air-tight, somehow the combination of the wood, the fabric singep and the dehumdifiers worked to prevent mould and rust in most kerises. For some reasons, some kerises (perhaps due to worn off finishing), are still susceptible to mould on the exterior and, more dreadedly, the inside of the sheath. This in turn led to some rust if not cleaned off in time. Cleaning mould off the exterior is easy. The tougher part comes when we try to clean the interior. I don't have a good way, so I use a brush or sometimes even tissue (careful not to leave tissue residues inside the sheath!). I thought about using a blower, but that could make things worse by blowing the spores further down the batang. Oiling and cleaning the keris is easy enough provided you don't let it rust due to the mould. But I would take care to bring out the kerises only on a relatively dry and hot day, which is not many during the Monsoon seaon. And then, I moved to extreme East of Singapore 2 years ago... I did not have the benefit of the wooden cupboard anymore, and could only store my kerises, outside of their singep, in 2 steel cabinets in the bomb shelter which has terrible ventilation. Humidity builds up and you get a musky smell. Fellow Singaporeans living in newer apartments should find this familiar... Anyhow, the first year was traumatic! The pellet humidifiers didn't work, even in large quantities. A small electric dehumidifier was not effective and conked out after 3 months. Kerises which did not rust before started rusting! (Luckily not my most precious few ) I sealed all the inlets into the bomb shelter and plonked in an industrial strength dehumdifier (ok, a small one) which could regulate humidity at a preset level (I set it at 65%; 60% was too dry, causing shrinkage in some sheaths!). It took months for the air in the bomb shelter to stabilize. And now for my more important pieces, I also wrap the blades in thin plastic after I oil them, and keep them in the Singep. So far so good! The only thing is that I have to bring them out once in a while to 'air', to oil the wooden parts and let them reabsorb some moisture from the air. But of course, I'm reluctant to do so during the Monsoon season because there is simply too much humidity in the air! Will see how things turn out come February...

10th December 2009, 03:57 AM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	I'm in the East too.. I store mine in singep and inside carton boxes, which is then placed inside the cupboard.. I put a 'thirsty hippo'.. in each cupboard, according to its storage space size. There are a few on display and these are ok.. practically rust free. After each handling, I'll wipe and oil the blade lightly before storing..

12th December 2009, 01:20 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Shahrial. Maybe the use of wood or wood-derived product (cupboard cartons) is one of the factors that could help control humidity fluctuations.

12th December 2009, 02:00 AM	#4
Hartadi Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 56	dear All.. excuse for me as a new comer in VS. I store my collection in a special room, perhaps a bit different with other people store their collection, I'm taking the blade off the sheath, and hang it beside the standing sheath. The reason is cause i need to enjoy view of my collection, not only the wood (outside appearance) cause the Keris having some parts as Blade, sheath, hilt, etc. I can attached picture when requested. Regard, Hartadi

12th December 2009, 06:00 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Reading what you gentlemen have written is of interest to me. I've often been in Indonesia during the wet, and I've seen perfectly stained blades accumulate light rust almost overnight. The mildew is simply unbelieveable. If you leave a pair of leather shoes for a week without brushing them, they become totally covered in green fungus. Of course, the mildew also grows on wood. Fortunately I do not live in this sort of climate all the time, but where I do live poses its own special problems. I live in a marine environment, less than 25 meters to a salt water lake, with prevailing south winds blowing across that lake straight onto my house. This type of situation will also easily generate rust and mildew, even though not nearly as badly as the Wet in Solo. I store blades in plastic sleeves after oiling with WD40 that has been allowed to dry on the blade, followed by a mix of sandal wood oil, kenanga oil, and medicinal parafin. The smell from this oil on all blades in a small room creates a scented atmosphere. However, better protection could probably be provided by a good gun oil. Wood is regulary cleaned and protected with a good quality wax. A .22 calibre bristle brush on a rifle cleaning rod is ideal for brushing out the inside of scabbards; you can then use a long thin copper tube that has been pinched at the end to create a very small exit hole to blow out the dust. Scabbards are stored in cloth covers (singep), and then placed into either wooden chests or cardboard boxes. In my house I have only one keris on open display, but I do have a number of tombak out in the open. Following the above I do not ever have any problems with rust or mildew, but for pieces that are undergoing restoration and are out in my workshop without protection, rust and mildew are quite common occurrences.

12th December 2009, 05:30 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Well i feel really blessed to live where i do in Midwestern USA. It is not that i never have any problems, but it is nothing nearly so severe as what some of you describe here. Like Hardati (welcome to the forum BTW ) i also like to have access to my collection so most of it is displayed around my study, though i do keep them all sheathed as for me it is the best thing to do. I do store some in singeps as well and trade out on occasion to have new keris "on view" from time to time. Rust and mold has not been much of a problem for me over the years. I did have some wood (or at least the fine finish) crack on one of my sheaths one winter, but for the most part everything is fine. I try to oil the entire collection regularly and keep the wood clean.

12th December 2009, 10:02 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	David, for anybody living in a low humidity climate, and in some air conditioned atmospheres, wood care is a matter of primary concern. Not only will shellac crack and peel, but the wood itself will crack. I have sent perfect hilts to places like Ontario (air con), and Utah (dry) and have received reports of severe cracking. The same thing will happen with ivory, and for that reason most ivory collectors I know keep a tumbler of water in with their ivories. I don't know if this does much good, it seems to be a general practice. In Jawa we accept that certain woods need to be treated very carefully. Probably the most prestigious Javanese hilt wood is tayuman, but an old tradition says that hilts of this wood should never be worn during daylight hours, and that sunlight must never touch them. This is because this wood is very subject to cracking. I really don't know how to prevent this cracking problem. I do know that custom knife makers usually will not gaurantee handles from natural materials --- they can't afford to, because of this cracking problem. I feel that regular use of a good furniture oil, something like the old-time Sheraton, might help prevent cracking, but I really don't know.

13th December 2009, 02:24 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Funny, I live in a similar enviornment to Alan's; only difference is I am situated on a tidal salt marsh in the Northern Hemi . You never saw Silver tarnish so fast ! Must be low tide . We heat with wood; a kettle is always on the stove .

13th December 2009, 01:11 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Easy enough to buy on the web, and although firearms might be prohibited, surely a rod and brush are not? If you feel the rod might be unacceptable, just order a brush and thread a piece of 3/16 inch rod yourself. Something else that might work is a small bottle cleaning brush.

13th December 2009, 01:27 PM	#13
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just to give some background to my comment, the army here uses pieces of flannel hooked through the end of a rod to clean rifle barrels. So rifle brushes are not common. I can probably find pipe cleaning brushes easily in DIY shops and save the hassle of threading a brush myself.

13th December 2009, 09:47 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Military forces have varying levels of maintenance that depend upon circumstances. For example, when the Australian army used Lee Enfields everybody had a pull-through --- a piece of cord with a weight on one end and a brush and with an eye for flannel on the other end. This was used for quick and ugly field cleaning. But proper cleaning requires a couple of different brushes, solvent, flannel, and a rod. If there is no need for sporting rifles in Singapore, then it might be a bit hard to buy cleaning gear locally, but rods and brushes are very easy to buy off the net, and they're cheap and light. A thirty calibre rod and brush is probably a bit big, I think. I have a number of different sizes available --- I've got a number of different firearms --- and what I use is .22 and .17 cal. The pipe cleaners I've seen have not been brushes, and they've been quite short. Can you buy a pipe cleaning brush that is , say, 24 inches long? If you can, that'd probably be OK, I guess.

22nd December 2009, 08:48 PM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Ivories in display cabinet along with a small container of water.

23rd December 2009, 11:11 AM	#20
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Ah. I've seen this kind of thing, in a form of an opened cup filled with water, isn't it? Thanks alan. There are also old documentaries in Malay which show people soak / wash buffalo horn with water and black ashes. Ashes of what origin, and soaking for preserving etc...i don't know, still too young to care at that moment of time. Perhaps there are archives accessible within the broadcasting bodies.