For those of you with an interest in Taiwan Aboriginal stuff

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Ok, thanks for your generosity. I'll settle for the said cash equivalent

With demanding distant relatives like this...

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Good point, Nonoy. Let's wait for KuKulzA28's further comments ...

I'm more of a novice at this field of knowledge than many of you but... here goes...

Let me take a few cultural traits that set the aforementioned groups apart. Now keep in mind, nothing is 100% definitive, there are exceptions... CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG! There are several different peoples in Luzon yes? However the Cordilleran tribes are very distinct from the Tagalog/other people. These are people who practice headhunting, village-village warfare, are not sailors, and with what can be considered a lower level of civilization (in terms of infrastructure). The other peoples use distinctly different weaponry, and in Luzon many of these are Spanish influenced, have leather scabbards, and the most popular styles often come from the war with Spain/America and after. The Waray of Samar and Leyte also exhibit blade-characteristics that make them somewhat similar to the others. The people of the Dios Dios and Pulahan where tribal people in the hills. Although converted to Christianity (in many cases) they retained a lot of tribal ways and lived a semi-nomadic life-style. If they had agriculture it was growing hemp for sale. They often lived in the interior and fought with the more financially-savvy coastal people... I'm sure Hokkien Chinese were amongst those. While I doubt a vinta would be strange to a Waray hillman, and I don't think they were headhunters... culturally they share similarities as they have single bevel blades, semi-nomadic thus less infrastructure, village-village warfare, etc. The Kenyah and Kayan and other interior tribal people of Kalimantan/Borneo are another good example. They have modified chisel ground blades, headhunt, are not a seafaring civilization, practice village-village warfare.... and while their longhouses are big, it's not the same level of social and structural infrastructure as can be found in Jogyakarta, Bali, Sulu, Manila, etc. I do not know a lot about the Bhutanese nor the Lepcha people, but the Bhutanese sword is virtually identical to the Paiwanese sword, and the Lepcha people too have open-scabbards.

I DO think the sea-faring aspect is important. Look at Botel Tobago, the Yami island south of Taiwan and north of the Philippines. The Tao people, while genetically related to the Taiwanese aborigines, have more in common with northern Luzon Filipinos. They do not exhibit two traits endemic to Taiwanese Austronesians, and those are headhunting and drinking. They do however exhibit a sea-faring fishing culture... with very close cultural-cousins in Borneo. In fact, in their oral histories, they have gone to Luzon due to war... at one time there was more regular contact. THey are a vestiage of the oceanic culture than moved on from Taiwan, while the present-day aborigines had stayed and developed land-based cultures.

The more infrastructure there is, it seems these attributes also disappear. While headhunting might have been ubiquitous in the distant past, these peoples have had it up till more recently. Also the other Indo-Austronesians seem to have large cities, greater trade networks, and more centralized rule. Their blades tend to follow the patterns of klewang, parang, golok, and pedang. They have outside influences from Chinese, Indians, Malaysian (many are Melayu), etc. They, being more centralized and having larger populations based on a larger trade network, more intensive farming, and fishing - they conduct war differently and certainly not on a village-village level, they did it on a state-state level.


Maybe it is a combination of environment, convergent evolution, and the distribution of ideas... but it seems the biggest of these groups have many things in common underlying their similarities in blade characteristics.

just some thoughts...

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

With demanding distant relatives like this...

Well as the saying goes, you can choose your friends but not your relatives

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

I'm more of a novice at this field of knowledge than many of you but... here goes... xxx

Maybe it is a combination of environment, convergent evolution, and the distribution of ideas... but it seems the biggest of these groups have many things in common underlying their similarities in blade characteristics.

Thanks for that panoramic sweep of the ethnic weapons of the Austronesian world. It's great and I like it

I agree that we can see both -- there's a common thread, while at the same time we see distinct local traits ... the unity in diversity and diversity in unity stuff.

Of course the Austronesian peoples' culture/s did not develop in a vacuum. There's the two other neighboring civilizations -- the Chinese and the Indians/Hindu. And when the Europeans came later, what we have is a happy mix of just about everything?

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Well as the saying goes, you can choose your friends but not your relatives

Well if you insist...

there, we'll pretend I gave you money in that...

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thanks for that panoramic sweep of the ethnic weapons of the Austronesian world. It's great and I like it

I agree that we can see both -- there's a common thread, while at the same time we see distinct local traits ... the unity in diversity and diversity in unity stuff.

Of course the Austronesian peoples' culture/s did not develop in a vacuum. There's the two other neighboring civilizations -- the Chinese and the Indians/Hindu. And when the Europeans came later, what we have is a happy mix of just about everything?

Thanks! Yes I agree, unity in diversity, diversity in unity...

Yes, Chinese and Hindu cultures... but do not forget other minor influences such as Japanese and Islamic... this is part of what makes these asian/oceanic islands so interesting... just as biologically they have extremely dense and diverse species... culturally and materially, the people are so diverse... from an ethnographic weapons standpoint... you have SO MANY different regional blades, different tribal and ethnic decor and beliefs, so many cross-cultural influences...

Chinese blades attached to Taiwanese aboriginal handles, Spanish guards on Luzon bolos, Indian khanda-handles on pedangs, keris with European dagger hilts, parangs with European guards, Japanese-style swords adapted to Sumatran silat-style handling, discarding the shield for an espada-y-daga style...


It would be interesting if there was a good in-depth comparison between the blades of the Taiwanese aborigines, the Cordillera groups in Luzon, the Waray-waray in the Visayas, and the Dyaks of Borneo. In fact I have no doubt that if 4 members on this forum decided to do that, they have enough prime examples in their collections that it would definitely be possible.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Well if you insist... there, we'll pretend I gave you money in that...

xxx

It would be interesting if there was a good in-depth comparison between the blades of the Taiwanese aborigines, the Cordillera groups in Luzon, the Waray-waray in the Visayas, and the Dyaks of Borneo. In fact I have no doubt that if 4 members on this forum decided to do that, they have enough prime examples in their collections that it would definitely be possible.

Thanks for the virtual money ... and I'll be (virtually) forever grateful!

Yes, the Japanese did interact a lot with Luzon, and of course the Arabs did the same in Mindanao.

And I hope too that other members in the forum can show more Dyak blades which can be demonstrated to be related to some of the Philippine pieces

[KuKulzA28]

Sorry for not responding sooner!

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thanks for the virtual money ... and I'll be (virtually) forever grateful!

You better be... or I'll have to pretend headhunting is still a very much alive tradition! just kidding

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Yes, the Japanese did interact a lot with Luzon, and of course the Arabs did the same in Mindanao.

And I hope too that other members in the forum can show more Dyak blades which can be demonstrated to be related to some of the Philippine pieces

Yes, it does seem that the Dayaks, the Filipinos of Luzon and Visayas, as well as Taiwanese aborigines, have very strong cultural similarities... one of those is their blades. It would be interesting if a discussion could be had comparing, contrasting, and taking into account the various influences on these related Austronesian groups... I know for a fact that some of the people here have extensive bolo, sundang, and mandau collections.... the kind that makes you shamelessly drool uncontrollably, green with envy, or awed and impressed.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Sorry for not responding sooner!

You better be... or I'll have to pretend headhunting is still a very much alive tradition! just kidding


Yes, it does seem that the Dayaks, the Filipinos of Luzon and Visayas, as well as Taiwanese aborigines, have very strong cultural similarities... one of those is their blades. It would be interesting if a discussion could be had comparing, contrasting, and taking into account the various influences on these related Austronesian groups... I know for a fact that some of the people here have extensive bolo, sundang, and mandau collections.... the kind that makes you shamelessly drool uncontrollably, green with envy, or awed and impressed.

here a very old Dayak mandau scabbard ( around 1820) It maybe a small detail but the end of the scabbard looks like the end of Paiwan swords.
I my idea its a part of the more complex boatsymbolic that is widespread among cultures of the whole archipelago.
I don't know much about Taiwan however, ( just bougth the work of Chi-lu ) more or less encouraged by this thread.

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

here a very old Dayak mandau scabbard ( around 1820) It maybe a small detail but the end of the scabbard looks like the end of Paiwan swords.
I my idea its a part of the more complex boatsymbolic that is widespread among cultures of the whole archipelago.
I don't know much about Taiwan however, ( just bougth the work of Chi-lu ) more or less encouraged by this thread.

Yes it does, great observation! I like your theory. Most people don't know much about Taiwanese ethnographic weapons... many of those with a keen interest in classic Chinese weapons often overlook to the Taiwanese, Fujianese, Hakka, and Cantonese and their own martial arts and versions of Chinese weaponry. Many people don't even know Taiwan has aboriginal people who are the descendants of the earliest travelers of the Austronesian group!

From an ethnographic weapons standpoint, Taiwanese blades help provide a link in relating the different Austronesian peoples... and one may be able to find out what cultural relations are stronger between which groups, etc.

[yuanzhumin]

I went to ski in Heilongjiang (Chinese Siberia), trying to survive daily minus 35 celsius degrees temperatures. Then, on our last day at ski there, my wife broke her leg on a black slope. Well, it was quite a tough start for the New Year. After her successful surgery, I’m now back to my computer and trying to catch up on this thread.

Migueldiaz, you wrote : Of course one logical explanation is that the Austronesian migration to the Philippines came by way of Taiwan (see invasion route below of your great-great-xxx grandfathers. Austronesian migration came from Taiwan to the Philippines and then further down, this is an established fact now. But it doesn’t mean that the Austronesian people were the FIRST or the LAST ones to reach the Philippines. Some populations were already there. The Austronesian migrants brought their languages (that have often prevailed ) and mixed with the people that were there before them. All along their migration road down to the South Pacific, the only place were they didn’t meet pre-existing cultures is the one where they were the first to settle that is Polynesia and its islands.

Migueldiaz, you wrote : PS - By the way and as we all know, aside from archeology one other solid proof of this Austronesian migration theory is linguistics. Yes, archeology showed it first, with the discovery in many places all along the migration road of the Austronesian people of a common kind of pottery called lapita. Then, the linguists, as you say, proved that all the Austronesian languages spoken in the Pacific area by few hundreds millions speakers, are originating in the languages still spoken today by the Taiwanese aborigines - these Formosan languages showing the most archaic form of this family of languages. Then, more recently, the link was scientifically proven, through the DNA testings, mostly by the way of comparisons between Taiwanese aborigines DNA and New Zealand Maori DNA.

Migueldiaz,the first graphic you display seems to me outdated or at least uncomplete, while the second one is exact, and well showing the Austronesian migration path.

To Nonoy : you wrote What is the earliest record on the existence of the open scabbard and hollow hilt in Formosa? It is mentioned in Formosa oral tradition before recorded history? Knowing this may provide a clue as to how old or ancient this weapon has been existence (or how recent it is)? What we know is that there is no record concerning the Taiwan aborigines before the 16th cent. And that, later, not much is known about them, their existence, their culture. Most of their traditional territories – almost the center half of the island - was mentioned as ‘unknown’ (unchartered) till the end of the 19th, when the Japanese colonized the island. The Japanese ethnologists (the police and army following them) were the first to enter deep into the tribal lands of these feared headhunters. In the years from 1895 (Japanese arrival) to the 30s, the last rebellious tribes were tamed, the most remote villages had been displaced closer to the center of colonial power, industries had been developed among aborigines to integrate them. There were Japanese hospitals, schools… accessible to nearly every aboriginal villages. That’s when they began to make their own metal blade. Till that time it was only obtained through barter or taken through fights. Most of the blades were reused, transformed. Some were made up from Japanese army swords. After the 20s-30s, Aborigines were making their own blades. The Japanese ethnologists left studies showing that, when they arrived in the island, the open scabbards and hollow hilts were commonly used. The eldest Pingpu knives (end of 19th cent.), (Pingpu are the sinicized aborigines) that we still have today, show the same characteristics. For earlier testimony, there is not much.

To all : I have learned of a project of navigating this year on a traditional Polynesian pirogue from Tahiti to Taiwan and Shanghai, all along the migration path of the first Austronesian people (the other way around). Towards the end of this trip, the pirogue will stop in the Philippines and in Taiwan, then in Shanghai, arriving there when the Universal Expo is ending. A friend of mine could be associated with this project. I will give more detailed infos about it later. This adventure could give a whole new international exposure to the Austronesian culture,the extraordinary navigation skills of these poeples and their origin in Taiwan and Asia.

[Mytribalworld]

http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/nBa...rt=ccrelevance


The collection of Taiwanese tribal art in The Royal Tropical Institute Amsterdam. ( In my opinion more interesting than Leiden)

[migueldiaz]

Yuanzhumin, sorry to hear about your wife breaking her leg.

And thanks for your comments.

Originally Posted by yuanzhumin

Austronesian migration came from Taiwan to the Philippines and then further down, this is an established fact now. But it doesn’t mean that the Austronesian people were the FIRST or the LAST ones to reach the Philippines. Some populations were already there. The Austronesian migrants brought their languages (that have often prevailed) and mixed with the people that were there before them. All along their migration road down to the South Pacific, the only place were they didn’t meet pre-existing cultures is the one where they were the first to settle that is Polynesia and its islands.

Yes, agreed

Originally Posted by yuanzhumin

Yes, archeology showed it first, with the discovery in many places all along the migration road of the Austronesian people of a common kind of pottery called lapita. Then, the linguists, as you say, proved that all the Austronesian languages spoken in the Pacific area by few hundreds millions speakers, are originating in the languages still spoken today by the Taiwanese aborigines - these Formosan languages showing the most archaic form of this family of languages. Then, more recently, the link was scientifically proven, through the DNA testings, mostly by the way of comparisons between Taiwanese aborigines DNA and New Zealand Maori DNA.

Indeed genetics is another confirming factor in the Austronesian migration, and the related-ness of the subject peoples.

Originally Posted by yuanzhumin

Migueldiaz,the first graphic you display seems to me outdated or at least uncomplete, while the second one is exact, and well showing the Austronesian migration path.

Yes, it's up to Madagascar in the west, and up to Easter Island in the east. That's truly a mind-boggling extent of a migration.

Originally Posted by yuanzhumin

To all : I have learned of a project of navigating this year on a traditional Polynesian pirogue from Tahiti to Taiwan and Shanghai, all along the migration path of the first Austronesian people (the other way around). Towards the end of this trip, the pirogue will stop in the Philippines and in Taiwan, then in Shanghai, arriving there when the Universal Expo is ending. A friend of mine could be associated with this project. I will give more detailed infos about it later. This adventure could give a whole new international exposure to the Austronesian culture,the extraordinary navigation skills of these poeples and their origin in Taiwan and Asia.

Presently, there's also a on-going project by Filipinos who recently climbed Mt. Everest -- that is, Bajaus built for them a barangay [buh-rung-GUY] (the precolonial boat of the Filipinos) last year, and the Mt. Everest team has been sailing said boat around the country since last year. I think this year they will take the same barangay to Malaysia or Indonesia ... again, to simulate the interisland travel of our peoples back then.