Balinese Hilt Help Requested

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 05:37 AM

I agree with Barry that the face is very bat-like, though the wings are not particularly. The tail also throws me and from the back it reminds me of Hanuman. Could this be some kind of composit animal. Bats do have some significance in the area, though i don't know exactly what. I have a fairly large, wooden hanging sculpture of a bat from Bali, so i wouldn't be all that surprised to find the creature in the form of a hulu. The material appears to be some kind of nature material. Maybe some kind of horn? It appears to have real age, not a new piece aged to look old. It has wear and a patina. I can't image what kind of composit material would have existed back then. Have you taken the hilt off yet?

The blade is a nice classic form, probably late 19th or early 20thC. Really needs a good etch and stain to bring out that pamor that i can just see traces off.

I think any uwer with real stones would look nice on here, though i am partial to the red stones like ruby and garnet.

tom hyle · 19th May 2005, 10:20 AM

I'm only getting the overall scabbard shot, the pic of the blade tip, and a frontal view of the figure (and 3 or 4 little boxes with red "X"s). There is a certain resemblance to the giant fruit eating "fox bat", but it does not seem to me that is the bat usually used in iconic representations; a more vampire-looking bat with a short nose and small eyes is more often seen? Hey, a Vietnamese guy looking for unexploded mines using a mak to clear off ground-vines on TV. Cool. Danger UXB, Vietnam. Bali blades do not usually have a deep etch as seen on Javanese and other k(e)ris. Is it possible the handle is stone? Hard to tell with the spottiness, etc, but the darker brown looks like it may be a deliberately applied finish; hard with a photo anyway, but also some of it appears to have been deliberately removed at some time?

tom hyle · 19th May 2005, 10:36 AM

OK, they all came up that time (I think; more anyway). Looks more like a rat than any other face to me. Definitely a mammal. The apelike crest of hair is indeed fairly typical of Hanuman. Hanuman is usually depicted with a shorter more Humanlike face, but there are certainly monkeys with long faces like this. Is it possible the wings are being worn, as a costume? Is there a legend where a rat/monkey/god disguises itself as an eagle or uses an eagle's wings or something? There's a harness around the whole shoulder area (except on the back, between the wings; for simplicity?) with shoulder armour? What are the two round protrusions just above the hands and below the base of the wings? It looks like those rows of lines (representing bindings?) go around both thigh and shin? A curious figure.
Clearly the Wicked Witch has been to Bali.

Rick · 19th May 2005, 01:58 PM

Hanuman did have the power of flight . If you check the illustration linked you can see the similarity in the hand/arm posture .
I'm going to vote for Hanuman in a rarely seen form . The erection may simply be the knot in his waist cloth as it is commonly shown in depictions of the Monkey God :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman

If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable .

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 02:22 PM

Yeah Tom, Oz's flying monkeys was really my first thought too.

The hanging Balinese bat sculpture i have is indeed this same type oflong snouted face.
Just a disclaimer, when i say etch i am not referring to a deep etch, just a bath in some fruit juice to help remove and rust and gunk. More a cleaning than an etch i suppose. But i guess the acids in the juice do etch the blade to some degree.

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable .

Oh sure he is Rick. This is obviously a depiction of an early Balinese Rap singer grapping his crouch. The club is his microphone.

Rick · 19th May 2005, 02:48 PM

Must be Spring in Cincy eh ?

You shouldn't be talking about Bima that way , he's carrying a pretty big club .

Seriously though ; I have been searching for the Bat in Bali/Hindu mythology and have come up blank so far . We do know that Hanuman was capable of changing form .

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 03:59 PM

Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright!

Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai:
http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html

19th May 2005, 01:58 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,366	Hanuman did have the power of flight . If you check the illustration linked you can see the similarity in the hand/arm posture . I'm going to vote for Hanuman in a rarely seen form . The erection may simply be the knot in his waist cloth as it is commonly shown in depictions of the Monkey God : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 19th May 2005 at 02:12 PM.

19th May 2005, 02:48 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,366	Sigh ........ Must be Spring in Cincy eh ? You shouldn't be talking about Bima that way , he's carrying a pretty big club . Seriously though ; I have been searching for the Bat in Bali/Hindu mythology and have come up blank so far . We do know that Hanuman was capable of changing form .

19th May 2005, 05:37 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I agree with Barry that the face is very bat-like, though the wings are not particularly. The tail also throws me and from the back it reminds me of Hanuman. Could this be some kind of composit animal. Bats do have some significance in the area, though i don't know exactly what. I have a fairly large, wooden hanging sculpture of a bat from Bali, so i wouldn't be all that surprised to find the creature in the form of a hulu. The material appears to be some kind of nature material. Maybe some kind of horn? It appears to have real age, not a new piece aged to look old. It has wear and a patina. I can't image what kind of composit material would have existed back then. Have you taken the hilt off yet? The blade is a nice classic form, probably late 19th or early 20thC. Really needs a good etch and stain to bring out that pamor that i can just see traces off. I think any uwer with real stones would look nice on here, though i am partial to the red stones like ruby and garnet.

19th May 2005, 10:20 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm only getting the overall scabbard shot, the pic of the blade tip, and a frontal view of the figure (and 3 or 4 little boxes with red "X"s). There is a certain resemblance to the giant fruit eating "fox bat", but it does not seem to me that is the bat usually used in iconic representations; a more vampire-looking bat with a short nose and small eyes is more often seen? Hey, a Vietnamese guy looking for unexploded mines using a mak to clear off ground-vines on TV. Cool. Danger UXB, Vietnam. Bali blades do not usually have a deep etch as seen on Javanese and other k(e)ris. Is it possible the handle is stone? Hard to tell with the spottiness, etc, but the darker brown looks like it may be a deliberately applied finish; hard with a photo anyway, but also some of it appears to have been deliberately removed at some time?

19th May 2005, 10:36 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	OK, they all came up that time (I think; more anyway). Looks more like a rat than any other face to me. Definitely a mammal. The apelike crest of hair is indeed fairly typical of Hanuman. Hanuman is usually depicted with a shorter more Humanlike face, but there are certainly monkeys with long faces like this. Is it possible the wings are being worn, as a costume? Is there a legend where a rat/monkey/god disguises itself as an eagle or uses an eagle's wings or something? There's a harness around the whole shoulder area (except on the back, between the wings; for simplicity?) with shoulder armour? What are the two round protrusions just above the hands and below the base of the wings? It looks like those rows of lines (representing bindings?) go around both thigh and shin? A curious figure. Clearly the Wicked Witch has been to Bali.

19th May 2005, 02:22 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yeah Tom, Oz's flying monkeys was really my first thought too. The hanging Balinese bat sculpture i have is indeed this same type oflong snouted face. Just a disclaimer, when i say etch i am not referring to a deep etch, just a bath in some fruit juice to help remove and rust and gunk. More a cleaning than an etch i suppose. But i guess the acids in the juice do etch the blade to some degree.

19th May 2005, 03:59 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Oh yes! It's spring in Cincy aright! Here's a link to Pura Goa Lawah, a sacred bat cave temple on Bai: http://www.edwebproject.org/bali/gallery/goalawah.html