sickles/ weapons of other country than India

Michel · 7th December 2009, 09:11 AM

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks you for your message and the links.
I did not know that sickles had to have concave edge.
How do you name cutting tools with convex edges ?
In French, my mother tongue, I do not recall a word for sickles with convex cutting edge.
Thanks for the information
Michel

Emanuel · 7th December 2009, 01:52 PM

Hi Michel,

Sickle = serpe ou faucille, toutes les deux ont la lame concave, non?
In English I think "machete" covers most kinds of large utilitarian blades.
Sickle, bill-hook and scythe cover the concave blades.

For arms, sabre, cutlass and "scimitar" all represent blade with convex cutting edge. I think most kinds of SE Asian klewangs would generally be termed machetes in English, regardless of curvature, thickness or blade profile.

Cheers,
Emanuel

katana · 7th December 2009, 02:15 PM

Hi Michel,
the picture in your second post is almost certainly a Parang Ginah

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3767

Regards David

Michel · 7th December 2009, 03:28 PM

Thank you David,
It is indeed a parang ginah, Stone page 481 and van Zoneveld page 98, (only a description no photo) confirm it.
I have not found any name or picture for the other tools or weapons

Thanks Emanuel,
You are right with the French translation and the concave blade.
But for me, a machete is a long strait blade slashing tool, with sometime a bit of an upwards convex tip, that can be utilized as a weapon.
I have seen many in Africa and in South America. I have one from South America.
Do you really think that the pieces I showed could be named machete in English ?
I have never seen machete with such a convex curved shape.

You said : Sickle, bill-hook and scythe cover the concave blades.
You are right again but what about those with convex blades that are not arms/weapons ?
English is usually a very precise language and I am a bit surprise that a generic name for convex tools cannot be found.
May be one of the expert of the forum could help me ?
Thanks in any case, I have learned something with your post.
Regards
Michel

Emanuel · 7th December 2009, 04:51 PM

Hi Michel,

There really aren't many utilitarian convex blades that I can think of.

There are a few WWII US machete variants based on a Philippine bolo, with a wide belly and various convex curvatures. Not much thought into this, but it seems that a highly curved convex blade is not really needed for utilitarian purposes - cutting vegetation, wood, or rope

As far as i understand it, in lay usage "machete" covers pretty much any large blade that is not a recognizable sword or sabre. Technically I think of it as a relatively thin blade with no distal taper, mostly straight with parallel edges and with a sometimes broader convex tip, used primarily for cutting vegetation. Variations are endless. It would be good to see others chime in on this, as I'm not a native English speaker.

English is not always that precise. A while back there was a discussion around the difference between knife and dagger, bowie-type versus naval-type. Same as in French to some degree - couteau, poignard, dague, coutelas, subtle differences, all debatable.

Regards,
Emanuel

fearn · 7th December 2009, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hi Michel,

Sickle = serpe ou faucille, toutes les deux ont la lame concave, non?
In English I think "machete" covers most kinds of large utilitarian blades.
Sickle, bill-hook and scythe cover the concave blades.

For arms, sabre, cutlass and "scimitar" all represent blade with convex cutting edge. I think most kinds of SE Asian klewangs would generally be termed machetes in English, regardless of curvature, thickness or blade profile.

Cheers,
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,

I think it depends on the version of English that you use.

I agree that a sickle has to have the concave edge sharpened. These are single-handed tools primarily used for harvesting wheat, and the name has been used for others, such as the kama used to harvest rice and incidentally as a weapon.. Something similar to the kama is called a crane's bill, and of course, the two-handed version is called the scythe.

In America, most of the large utilitarian blades are machetes, but that doesn't mean that any utilitarian blade in America is called a machete.

In England, at least 100 years ago, they used bills/brush hooks/bill hooks, which were typically concave (although some were sharp on both sides), especially for hedging, but also for light pruning jobs. Two-handed bills (typically double-edged) are called blank blades or sling blades at major hardware stores in the US. The french name is fauchard, interestingly, we're back in falx land here.

In Australia, machete-like blades are called bush knives. Probably there are sickles and the rest out there somewhere, but I don't know about them. I wouldn't be surprised if Indonesian goloks aren't percolating in as we speak.

When in doubt, call it a knife, or call it a saber if you want to emphasize its military aspects.

Best,

F

Billman · 18th March 2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks you for your message and the links.
I did not know that sickles had to have concave edge.
How do you name cutting tools with convex edges ?
In French, my mother tongue, I do not recall a word for sickles with convex cutting edge.
Thanks for the information
Michel

En France les outils for couper le bois se sont appellé la 'serpe', c'est à dire billhook on anglais, mais on trouve aussi les 'faucilles à bois'.... 'La serpe' est aussi utilisé pour les autres outils taillants, comme la serpe à betterave (beet knife en anglais), serpe à tonnellier (un cochoir ou une cauchoire - cooper's knife en anglais)... La serpe est ein Gertel en allemande suisse.....

En France la serpe est concave, etroit, ventré et limande (c'est à dire affutée sur la cote convexe...)

Woodcutting billhooks from France can have concave, straight, bellied or convex blades - they are not all only sharpened on the inner edge...

Images d'une serpe à betterave française, marquée Creuset Saut du Tarn Garanti (a french beet knife made by Creuset from Saut du Tarn)

tom hyle · 18th March 2011, 09:38 PM

wow! Super cool thread. I have started a new job, am poisoned by toxic sewer gas/black mold, am running on pills, have slept 4 1/2 hours in the last three days, so state of exhaution, but I am bound to have things to say later

Very nice!!!

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 01:10 AM

Interestingly enough, to me, machete is a very major example of a traditional work sword with convex curvature. I do not consider hooked bill-like swords true machetes, nor for that matter are sugar cane knives, nor a variety of other square-tipped work swords to which the term is often applied. To me a true machete is curved backward (ie like a sabre), usually rather slightly, usually mostly at the tip, usually mostly on the true/front/cutting edge.
Good old machetes do have distal taper, and it makes a particularly big difference in using quality in these thin swords.
Billman, I am really enjoying you; you have shown up since I have been gone.
I am glad to see a trend on this forum progressing away from the tradition of arbitrarily misidentifying unkown blades as tourist/decorator pieces, BTW

And then (convexly curved work swords) there is the butcher's scymitar.....

Billman · 20th March 2011, 12:58 PM

And don't forget Blakie's hedge scimitar, as mention in Loudon'e treatise of 1860.. although with a long handle and a hooked blade, this is more of a slasher (hedge trimming bill).... see also slashing knife...

This tool survives virtually unchanged in the vineyards of France, where it is known as a 'serpe à désherber' (or a 'faucille à écimer' or 'dailhot' (region Bordelais)) - often made from a piece of an old scythe blade rivetted to a wooden handle... It is used to remove excess foliage from a vine to allow the plant to put its effort into producing grapes... (see third image - of a professionally made version from Gironde (Bordeaux) in France)

Billman · 20th March 2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I am glad to see a trend on this forum progressing away from the tradition of arbitrarily misidentifying unkown blades as tourist/decorator pieces, BTW

Found these two images on Flikr a few days ago - labelled as vousge, a type of bill or pike, i.e. a pole arm, and thought to be 18th century... They are in a museum in Worcester, Massachusetts, USA.... They are in fact French 'coupes-marc' (singular 'coupe-marc' - also known as a 'hache de chais') - a long handled knife from the Normandy/Britanny regions, used to cut up the 'marc', or residue, (known also as the 'moût' in some regions) of the cider presses. The protuberence on the back of the blade, often bearing the maker's stamp or 'poinçon', readily identifies these as from this part of northern France... Similar (and also axe shaped version - often mis-named as be-heading axes), are also found in the wine growing regions....

The shape of the blade varies widely from region to region.... for anyone interested in Franch tools, I would highly recommend the books of Daniel Boucard, published by Jean Cyrille Godefroy... A page from one of his books showing this tool can be found at: http://www.anciens-outils.com/page_hachesdechais.htm and another at http://img41.xooimage.com/files/4/7/...is-131bda9.jpg

But arms and weapons have greater value than mere agricultural tools.... The comparison picture is from the Musée du Vin (Wine Museum) in Paris, and shows some of the regional blade shapes... and two others with the maker's mark DU CHENE on the blade...

blue lander · 18th December 2013, 05:29 PM

Sorry for digging up such an old thread but I thought I'd post a sickle I bought awhile ago as it's somewhat similar to the "slashing-knife" in the illustration from Billman's post. I assume it's proper ethnographic categorization would be "rusty old American farm implement", but I could be wrong. There's no markings on the blade that I can see. It's hollow ground on one side and flat on the other, and it's bent to one side.

7th December 2009, 09:11 AM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Sickles / weapons Hi Emanuel, Thanks you for your message and the links. I did not know that sickles had to have concave edge. How do you name cutting tools with convex edges ? In French, my mother tongue, I do not recall a word for sickles with convex cutting edge. Thanks for the information Michel

19th March 2011, 01:10 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	machete Interestingly enough, to me, machete is a very major example of a traditional work sword with convex curvature. I do not consider hooked bill-like swords true machetes, nor for that matter are sugar cane knives, nor a variety of other square-tipped work swords to which the term is often applied. To me a true machete is curved backward (ie like a sabre), usually rather slightly, usually mostly at the tip, usually mostly on the true/front/cutting edge. Good old machetes do have distal taper, and it makes a particularly big difference in using quality in these thin swords. Billman, I am really enjoying you; you have shown up since I have been gone. I am glad to see a trend on this forum progressing away from the tradition of arbitrarily misidentifying unkown blades as tourist/decorator pieces, BTW And then (convexly curved work swords) there is the butcher's scymitar.....

20th March 2011, 12:58 PM	#10
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	And don't forget Blakie's hedge scimitar, as mention in Loudon'e treatise of 1860.. although with a long handle and a hooked blade, this is more of a slasher (hedge trimming bill).... see also slashing knife... This tool survives virtually unchanged in the vineyards of France, where it is known as a 'serpe à désherber' (or a 'faucille à écimer' or 'dailhot' (region Bordelais)) - often made from a piece of an old scythe blade rivetted to a wooden handle... It is used to remove excess foliage from a vine to allow the plant to put its effort into producing grapes... (see third image - of a professionally made version from Gironde (Bordeaux) in France) Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 20th March 2011 at 01:44 PM.

18th December 2013, 05:29 PM	#12
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Sorry for digging up such an old thread but I thought I'd post a sickle I bought awhile ago as it's somewhat similar to the "slashing-knife" in the illustration from Billman's post. I assume it's proper ethnographic categorization would be "rusty old American farm implement", but I could be wrong. There's no markings on the blade that I can see. It's hollow ground on one side and flat on the other, and it's bent to one side. Attached Images

7th December 2009, 01:52 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Michel, Sickle = serpe ou faucille, toutes les deux ont la lame concave, non? In English I think "machete" covers most kinds of large utilitarian blades. Sickle, bill-hook and scythe cover the concave blades. For arms, sabre, cutlass and "scimitar" all represent blade with convex cutting edge. I think most kinds of SE Asian klewangs would generally be termed machetes in English, regardless of curvature, thickness or blade profile. Cheers, Emanuel

7th December 2009, 02:15 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Michel, the picture in your second post is almost certainly a Parang Ginah http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3767 Regards David

7th December 2009, 03:28 PM	#4
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thank you David, It is indeed a parang ginah, Stone page 481 and van Zoneveld page 98, (only a description no photo) confirm it. I have not found any name or picture for the other tools or weapons Thanks Emanuel, You are right with the French translation and the concave blade. But for me, a machete is a long strait blade slashing tool, with sometime a bit of an upwards convex tip, that can be utilized as a weapon. I have seen many in Africa and in South America. I have one from South America. Do you really think that the pieces I showed could be named machete in English ? I have never seen machete with such a convex curved shape. You said : Sickle, bill-hook and scythe cover the concave blades. You are right again but what about those with convex blades that are not arms/weapons ? English is usually a very precise language and I am a bit surprise that a generic name for convex tools cannot be found. May be one of the expert of the forum could help me ? Thanks in any case, I have learned something with your post. Regards Michel

7th December 2009, 04:51 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Michel, There really aren't many utilitarian convex blades that I can think of. There are a few WWII US machete variants based on a Philippine bolo, with a wide belly and various convex curvatures. Not much thought into this, but it seems that a highly curved convex blade is not really needed for utilitarian purposes - cutting vegetation, wood, or rope As far as i understand it, in lay usage "machete" covers pretty much any large blade that is not a recognizable sword or sabre. Technically I think of it as a relatively thin blade with no distal taper, mostly straight with parallel edges and with a sometimes broader convex tip, used primarily for cutting vegetation. Variations are endless. It would be good to see others chime in on this, as I'm not a native English speaker. English is not always that precise. A while back there was a discussion around the difference between knife and dagger, bowie-type versus naval-type. Same as in French to some degree - couteau, poignard, dague, coutelas, subtle differences, all debatable. Regards, Emanuel

18th March 2011, 09:38 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	wow! Super cool thread. I have started a new job, am poisoned by toxic sewer gas/black mold, am running on pills, have slept 4 1/2 hours in the last three days, so state of exhaution, but I am bound to have things to say later Very nice!!!