Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2009, 06:41 PM

Hi Dmitry,
Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt.
Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes

but looks like it would do the job.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 8th January 2010, 12:37 PM

www.apacheria.com/images/ew204.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204b.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204c.jpg

OK, so is this Spanish/Mexican colonial work? It sure looks like later 19th century Mex piece to me, complete with classic hilt shape and 3 barred guard. Forgot to mention that it is listed as a Mex sword on the website. Note the turned quillon on this piece and how it compares to mine. I have since seen another late-Mex piece in an old Fagan catalog that likewise had some type of tin/nickol wrap-around. Gaudy-looking, but an espada, none-the-less. Likewise, I have been pouring through web-sites and our onw forum, ut have yet to encounter a W. African sword with a hilt like mine. This isn't a pride-thing, I assure you. I'm neutral on it's origin, I just want some closure!! (

)- Don't we all on these anomalous pieces...

M ELEY · 9th January 2010, 02:02 AM

Bump. Anyone? Does this sword I posted lend some credence to Mex/Colonial Spanish or is there any proof that this new posting is ALSO of W African origin?? Note how even the D-guard grip are similar.

Here's another Mex sword with the same curve to the quillon, similar to the one on mine-

www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/mexican.htm

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2010, 05:29 AM

Hi Mark,
Well theres another interesting example! Again, this looks very much like the makeshift work representing established traditional sword types in Mexico, but post colonial period. Sabres similar to these are described in the Adams article on espada anchas as 'round tang' espadas, and they typically had multibar guards ('gavilan'). The blade on this is of espada ancha type but later, along with the very modern elements on the hilt with copper and aluminum.
It is not hard to imagine West Africa brought into the picture with some of these types of one off pieces which are all the more difficult to identify as there are seldom parallel items with which to compare them. Without actual handling of these, by appearance they have typological characteristics of the Mexican espadas, but the very modern components create concerns about likely refurbishing in more modern times.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 9th January 2010, 08:05 AM

Hello Jim and Happy New Year!

Thanks for responding. Did Adams establish if the so-called round tang espadas were a relatively late development in these swords, or were they seen on earlier pieces as well? You are right on when you mention the trade-routes and intricate cross-over of styles between some cultures. I'm still willing to believe W African...just too bad no exact examples forthcoming.

I find it interesting that the one characteristic which really makes one pause with classifying it (the alloy grip) is also the very thing that attracted me to it and makes it stand out. Without that, it would have been an extremely plain piece, less eye catching, yet with it, an anomaly.

Seems like the next step I might take is in testing the grip for metal type. If it does turn out to be tin or pewter, I imagine it could be older vs nickel (mid- 19th) vs zinc (late 19th/early 20th). Does anyone have any recommendations for tests?

katana · 9th January 2010, 12:43 PM

Hi Mark,
personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank

I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile'

All the best
David

M ELEY · 10th January 2010, 06:09 AM

Thanks for commenting, David. Yes, the over-all look of this piece does hint at a naval connotation. That's one of the things that attracted me to it. Regardless of its origin, I like the piece and it continues to grow on me. I do admit that a more solid classification is my style, but if most of the evidence points to W African with Spanish influence, I can live with that. I'm still interested in a more definitive time period and would argue that it is pre-1900.

Ahh yes, the infamous "mystery pile". I have pilfered from it's stockpile many a time...

celtan · 10th January 2010, 11:54 PM

Guys,

The Canary islands are very, very far away from Europe, yet rather close to Africa, and they have similar made knives.

Taking into consideration the huge involvement of England in the slave trade, it is more likely that this sword might be a native copy of a British cutlass, compounded with a Canary Islands-type hilt. ( IIRC, the Spanish did not make any Cutlasses until the Napoleonic Wars. : )

Another alternative is that it might be a Filipino weapon? I does have a certain oriental "feel" to it.

TTFN

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Mark,
personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank

I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile'

All the best
David

8th January 2010, 12:37 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Ahhh...the game is (still) afoot! www.apacheria.com/images/ew204.jpg www.apacheria.com/images/ew204b.jpg www.apacheria.com/images/ew204c.jpg OK, so is this Spanish/Mexican colonial work? It sure looks like later 19th century Mex piece to me, complete with classic hilt shape and 3 barred guard. Forgot to mention that it is listed as a Mex sword on the website. Note the turned quillon on this piece and how it compares to mine. I have since seen another late-Mex piece in an old Fagan catalog that likewise had some type of tin/nickol wrap-around. Gaudy-looking, but an espada, none-the-less. Likewise, I have been pouring through web-sites and our onw forum, ut have yet to encounter a W. African sword with a hilt like mine. This isn't a pride-thing, I assure you. I'm neutral on it's origin, I just want some closure!! ( )- Don't we all on these anomalous pieces... Last edited by M ELEY; 8th January 2010 at 12:48 PM.

9th January 2010, 02:02 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Bump. Anyone? Does this sword I posted lend some credence to Mex/Colonial Spanish or is there any proof that this new posting is ALSO of W African origin?? Note how even the D-guard grip are similar. Here's another Mex sword with the same curve to the quillon, similar to the one on mine- www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/mexican.htm Last edited by M ELEY; 9th January 2010 at 08:07 AM.

28th November 2009, 06:41 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Hi Dmitry, Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt. Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes but looks like it would do the job. All the best, Jim

9th January 2010, 05:29 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,565	Hi Mark, Well theres another interesting example! Again, this looks very much like the makeshift work representing established traditional sword types in Mexico, but post colonial period. Sabres similar to these are described in the Adams article on espada anchas as 'round tang' espadas, and they typically had multibar guards ('gavilan'). The blade on this is of espada ancha type but later, along with the very modern elements on the hilt with copper and aluminum. It is not hard to imagine West Africa brought into the picture with some of these types of one off pieces which are all the more difficult to identify as there are seldom parallel items with which to compare them. Without actual handling of these, by appearance they have typological characteristics of the Mexican espadas, but the very modern components create concerns about likely refurbishing in more modern times. All the best, Jim

9th January 2010, 08:05 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hello Jim and Happy New Year! Thanks for responding. Did Adams establish if the so-called round tang espadas were a relatively late development in these swords, or were they seen on earlier pieces as well? You are right on when you mention the trade-routes and intricate cross-over of styles between some cultures. I'm still willing to believe W African...just too bad no exact examples forthcoming. I find it interesting that the one characteristic which really makes one pause with classifying it (the alloy grip) is also the very thing that attracted me to it and makes it stand out. Without that, it would have been an extremely plain piece, less eye catching, yet with it, an anomaly. Seems like the next step I might take is in testing the grip for metal type. If it does turn out to be tin or pewter, I imagine it could be older vs nickel (mid- 19th) vs zinc (late 19th/early 20th). Does anyone have any recommendations for tests?

9th January 2010, 12:43 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Mark, personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile' All the best David

10th January 2010, 06:09 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thanks for commenting, David. Yes, the over-all look of this piece does hint at a naval connotation. That's one of the things that attracted me to it. Regardless of its origin, I like the piece and it continues to grow on me. I do admit that a more solid classification is my style, but if most of the evidence points to W African with Spanish influence, I can live with that. I'm still interested in a more definitive time period and would argue that it is pre-1900. Ahh yes, the infamous "mystery pile". I have pilfered from it's stockpile many a time...