Ottoman Turkish (?) Dagger

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 04:49 AM

I freely have to admit to having egg on my face over this one (and Justin's too, for that matter

) as I have one nearly identical to Ian's swap item, complete with scabbard only with a simple bone hilt and was told years ago that these were called "kirpans", used by the Sikhs of India.
On the other hand, I've had several with nearly identical hilts that had fullered, damascus blades and, occasionally, reinforced, armor piercing tips and were told that THESE were the ones made for export or take-homes by colonialists, leaving me as confused as embaressed.
In truth, these two are the first that I've seen with the combination of the chain guard and the inlaid MOP hilts.
My next question, I guess, is to ask is anyone else has heard of a "Kirpan" and if there is any validity to the claim that it is a style of knife associated with the Sikhs?
My second question is, pertaining to the blades on these three, doesn't it seem strange that the words "Victory" and "Pure Steel" would be found on knives of the late 1800's/early 1900's?
Perhaps it's just me and exposure to too many Philippine knives circa 1945, but this time period just seems much more appropriate and logical than the earlier designation.
Mike

Rick · 18th May 2005, 02:52 PM

Hi Mike , I believe kirpan is a generic name for a sword . Nowadays they are small but back in the day the Sikhs had to fight to keep their territories and defend themselves from both Hindus , Muslims and other agressors .

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikhism3.asp

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 03:36 PM

Thanks Rick....I had been told that the chain-hilted dagger/knife with the curved blade was the "modern" (for the past 150 years or so) symbolic incarnation of the sword as the Sikhs had become more civilized and carried by them much in the same context that a rosary might be carried by a Catholic or prayer beads by many muslim or Tibetan sects.
Which brings me back to my original question....are Aurangzeb's and Ian's knives/daggers versions of a kirpan, made the same as the kards with that same hilt that is more commonly/usually seen and that lacks the chain and guard altogether (I've had approximately a half-dozen over the past 7 or 8 years)?
Mike

Aurangzeb · 18th May 2005, 09:17 PM

Hi conogre!

Althogh I am no expert I whould say that they are.I have seen the type of knife you are talking about and to me the resemblence is to similer to be quincidence.O course this is only a novices view so I might not be correct!

P.S.-Was that you I was bidding against recently on 'Ebay' for a arab knife?

tom hyle · 19th May 2005, 09:53 AM

There seems to be some confusion occuring between this, a Sikh kirpan of fairly usual style, and another type of blade, obviously made in the same area, which is a version of a salwar yataghan or pesh kabz with generally smallish blades and a deep groove near the spine, rather than a "T" spine. It is these which are always spoken of as for the foreign (mostly English?) market. The kirpan is for Sikhs, and each Sikh man must wear one at least symbolically (not sure about the women). Its sale to foreigners is incidental. Interestingly, the word "victory" which we are used to as a wwII reference, may be a reference to victory in spiritual struggle in this context.

18th May 2005, 04:49 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I freely have to admit to having egg on my face over this one (and Justin's too, for that matter ) as I have one nearly identical to Ian's swap item, complete with scabbard only with a simple bone hilt and was told years ago that these were called "kirpans", used by the Sikhs of India. On the other hand, I've had several with nearly identical hilts that had fullered, damascus blades and, occasionally, reinforced, armor piercing tips and were told that THESE were the ones made for export or take-homes by colonialists, leaving me as confused as embaressed. In truth, these two are the first that I've seen with the combination of the chain guard and the inlaid MOP hilts. My next question, I guess, is to ask is anyone else has heard of a "Kirpan" and if there is any validity to the claim that it is a style of knife associated with the Sikhs? My second question is, pertaining to the blades on these three, doesn't it seem strange that the words "Victory" and "Pure Steel" would be found on knives of the late 1800's/early 1900's? Perhaps it's just me and exposure to too many Philippine knives circa 1945, but this time period just seems much more appropriate and logical than the earlier designation. Mike Attached Images

19th May 2005, 09:53 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There seems to be some confusion occuring between this, a Sikh kirpan of fairly usual style, and another type of blade, obviously made in the same area, which is a version of a salwar yataghan or pesh kabz with generally smallish blades and a deep groove near the spine, rather than a "T" spine. It is these which are always spoken of as for the foreign (mostly English?) market. The kirpan is for Sikhs, and each Sikh man must wear one at least symbolically (not sure about the women). Its sale to foreigners is incidental. Interestingly, the word "victory" which we are used to as a wwII reference, may be a reference to victory in spiritual struggle in this context. Last edited by tom hyle; 20th May 2005 at 12:12 AM. Reason: "or pesh kabz"

18th May 2005, 02:52 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Mike , I believe kirpan is a generic name for a sword . Nowadays they are small but back in the day the Sikhs had to fight to keep their territories and defend themselves from both Hindus , Muslims and other agressors . http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikhism3.asp

18th May 2005, 03:36 PM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thanks Rick....I had been told that the chain-hilted dagger/knife with the curved blade was the "modern" (for the past 150 years or so) symbolic incarnation of the sword as the Sikhs had become more civilized and carried by them much in the same context that a rosary might be carried by a Catholic or prayer beads by many muslim or Tibetan sects. Which brings me back to my original question....are Aurangzeb's and Ian's knives/daggers versions of a kirpan, made the same as the kards with that same hilt that is more commonly/usually seen and that lacks the chain and guard altogether (I've had approximately a half-dozen over the past 7 or 8 years)? Mike

18th May 2005, 09:17 PM	#4
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi conogre! Althogh I am no expert I whould say that they are.I have seen the type of knife you are talking about and to me the resemblence is to similer to be quincidence.O course this is only a novices view so I might not be correct! P.S.-Was that you I was bidding against recently on 'Ebay' for a arab knife?