Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 02:39 AM

EXTREMELY interesting and informative posting.
I have to admit to being initially confused with the spelling of "kama" as opposed to "qama", with the former also being a Chinese weapon similar to a lohar, usually used in pairs, unless I'm mistaken.
TVV, your observation about the central ridge vs fullers and the unique guard on the one kama were both well made.....I've seen the steel guard that's folded back into the blade itself before, I believe on some late Roman era pieces dating to about 400 AD.
This is one of those threads that I'll be following closely and hoping to see more unfold, as regions like this that have been closed off or inaccessable to most of us for most of our lifetime have been all but forgotten and are just now coming into the light.
As to the "dot within a circle" motif, that has to be the single most discussed blade/hilt decoration ever by now.... I just did a quick walk-through of my own pieces and found it on the blades of my Pakistani fighting axes, the bronzework on my chora and khyber knife, on the blade of my Persian axe/American Indian tomohawk, on the bone hilt and brass haft of my lohar and on the bone hilt of my knife from Crete (somehow, calling it a Cretan knife just feels wrong, even if it is spelled different than cretin

) and I clearly remember it on several pieces from elsewhere in India in the past.
I suspect it's just because it's one of the easiest designs to punch or burn, needing only a steel or metal tube and a punch or nail, as opposed to other designs that require more complex tools to incorporate.
Mike

erlikhan · 18th May 2005, 09:19 AM

Yes. Can reach Izmir villages by many ways. Still,what I think is, brass hilted samples look similar, and mass produced to me. About the one of your friend like Samakov museum, I agree it belongs to an older era for sure. I havent seen similar samples here. The fullers seem not to come together some distance before the tip as it is supposed to be. Could be shortened?

TVV · 18th May 2005, 07:07 PM

Thanks Mike for your interest, your observation about the circle and dot motif is great: it is too common to be a secure way of identifying specimens.
Erlikhan: yes, ot could be shortened, but I do not think it is likely, as the two fullers seem to converge towards the tip, and if only the tip of a bigger sword were used, then the guard would probably rule out that option as it seems an integral part of the blade. Unfortunately I do not have this qama in my collection to examine it better, but I will ask the same question to its owner.

Radu Transylvanicus · 21st May 2005, 11:46 AM

Fascinating thread, TVV and Erlikhan you brough some fascinating info, completely new to me and yes indeed many arms of our Eastearn European panoply specially in the Balkans are far too quickly identified as Ottoman Turk, when at least two thirds of the Empire was really out of Turkey and not directly and solely influenced by Istanbul's "Sublime Porte" and many weapons were based on strong local facture and design, I see also examples from Transylvania (powder flasks, saddles and scimitars) Bosnia and Croatia (daggers) Albania (daggers, pistols and muskets) Greek peninsula and its Islands (daggers and yathagans) that were catalogued simply as Ottoman, which is not wrong in many cases since the region mightve been part of the Empire but it is the complete mist and unrecognition to the nation that created them that sometimes frustrates me ...

TVV · 21st May 2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

Yes. Can reach Izmir villages by many ways. Still,what I think is, brass hilted samples look similar, and mass produced to me. About the one of your friend like Samakov museum, I agree it belongs to an older era for sure. I havent seen similar samples here. The fullers seem not to come together some distance before the tip as it is supposed to be. Could be shortened?

Erlikhan, I checked with my firend and he provided the following information: the guard is part of the blade and they have been wrought together, which is absolutely extraordinary for a steel weapon from that period. As Conogre pointed out, the only thing that is somewhat similar are certain bronze weapons more than two thousand years ago. The fullers converge, but 3-4 cm before the blade tip disappear. It does not look like it has been shortened.

Radu, thanks for your interest in the thread. I too myself often wondered of the reasons behind the almost complete lack of information on weapons from the Ottoman times in Bulgaria, while weapons from other parts of the Empire, such as the Arabian Peninsula have been well studied and do not fall under the general Ottoman description. I beleieve the main reason is quite stupid and political: 15 years ago a pro-Russian, anti-NATO totalitarian government in Bulgaria seeked to deny everything in our history that had to do with the 5 not so glorious centuries that we spent under the Ottomans. Weapons were no exception and they were associated with the Turkish, who then were "The Enemy". Now that we are no longer following certain pan-slavic myths and reevaluating our history, yataghans and other weapons are no longer frowned upon. Also, 15 years ago the collecting of any type of weapons was of course prohibited, but currently edged weapons are allowed for people to own with no restrictions. This certainly contributes to the increase of interest in all weapon types and they will gradually become better studied.
To conclude, I would not blame the western scholars for lumping Bulgarian weapons with the rest of the Turkish arms, as they had no access to Bulgarian museums and written research in Bulgaria on these weapons was almost absent. It is Bulgarian communist historians and archeologists that are to blame.

erlikhan · 23rd May 2005, 01:09 PM

interesting . about the "Ottoman period- etnoghraphic weapons of Balkan peoples else than Turks" subject, according to my opinion, just opinion open to all corrections, matter is densely related to 1-religion 2- distance to Istanbul and how much direct the control over the land is.
Peoples like Albanians and Bosnians which entered Islam became politicaly equal citizens who could carry edged weapons. They continued to have and develop their own characteristic etnoghraphic arm styles under Ottoman rule,and we all know their characteristics from plenty of definite samples. Croatians,Hungarians were distant to Istanbul, total time under rule was relatively short, Turkish civil colonisation less or none, and control was weaker or indirect, which let their characteristic arms live too. western part of today's Romania was like that too. But , when it comes especially to Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece , as the control was direct, land strategically critical, Turkish colonisation was dense even reaching to 30-50s of the total population countrywide , local Christian people were not let to carry weapons,especially long ones I am sure strictly forbidden with perhaps very little exceptions. The environment wasnt suitable for the local types to live and evolve. For example, as all samples I have seen of what is called Greek yatagans and daggers carry clear Islamic prayers, dragon head and Turkish figures, I have to think they'd better be counted still of Turko-Islamic origin having geographical nuances, ordered by mostly Moslem customers to Turk or any other local Moslem or Christian craftmen. But of course this was till 1800s. Then, with the decrease and fall of Ottoman authority, rising nationalism and interest to ethnical roots, any model could be fastly recreated, developed ,modified using Turkish ones, or national types of pre-Ottoman middle age, any other types etc. This could explain the lack of characteristic national weapon samples from Ottoman era of before 19th c. in these Balkan countries. A good sample which can be attributed directly to these people must have some Christian religious or national signs. Are there such numerous samples that I dont know?
regards

TVV · 23rd May 2005, 08:06 PM

Great points, Erlikhan. However, there were Christians who were permitted to carry weapons, for example some Christians occupying minor administrative positions, such as being in charge of high mountain passes, etc. Also, even before the 19th century there were quite a lot of outlaws in the Balkans, some of them Muslims and deserters from the Turkish army, and some were Christians. The latter are sometimes romanticized as rebels but the truth is the great majority of them had no nationalistic or revolutionary sentiments and took up arms with plundering as their sole motivation and attacked Muslims and Christians indiscriminately. There were also a number of small unsuccessful rebelions and uprisals, whose participants used a variety of weapons.
When talking about Bulgarian types and variations of edged weapons I am not trying to separate them into Christian and Muslim examples, on the contrary, I believe the same weapon types were used by both Christians and Muslims, which can be evidenced by photographs of Bulgarian haiduts and revolutionaries, posing with kilidjes and yataghans. What I was trying to state in the begining of this thread was that in the lands that are now Bulgaria the edged weapons looked a bit different to the ones in Anataolia, who looked different from the ones in Greece, etc. There were local preferences in design and decoration, and there were perhaps one or two weapon types that are found in this region only, such as the mystery wepons from the start of this thread. And even those may not be Christian at all.

erlikhan · 25th May 2005, 10:57 AM

I see. Do you think geographical differences of weapons from Bulgaria carry some signs or characteristics coming from pre Ottoman local styles? just as an idea, there are Pomaks in Bulgaria. Moslem Bulgars as far as I know? I dont know if they used to be efficient in military, but they should carry arms much more freely and perhaps could continue some kind of native Bulgar style, not? If they have own tribal weapon models, could be interesting to examine them.

Yannis · 25th May 2005, 09:07 PM

I have to add that these kamas are very similar to greek ones of north Greece. They were used from guerilla fighters of greek Macedonia before the liberation of 1913.

TVV · 25th May 2005, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I see. Do you think geographical differences of weapons from Bulgaria carry some signs or characteristics coming from pre Ottoman local styles? just as an idea, there are Pomaks in Bulgaria. Moslem Bulgars as far as I know? I dont know if they used to be efficient in military, but they should carry arms much more freely and perhaps could continue some kind of native Bulgar style, not? If they have own tribal weapon models, could be interesting to examine them.

The Pomaks are not famous for military exploits. However, there were quite a lot of Turks in Nortehrn Bulgaria, who often joined the Ottoman army as irregulars and they certainly carried a huge amount of edged weapons of all sorts. Those were Turks who lived in Northern Bulgaria for a few centuries and probably they had their own style preferences.

Yannis: it is hard to see from the photo much as of the style of the kindjal's hilt. It appears a bit bigger then the ones more typical of Bulgaria, and this style of small qamas was characteristic for Central Bulgaria, and my current research shows that it became popular only after 1878. It is very likely that some made their way into Macedonia though, as the VMORO fighters equipped themselves with all sorts of weapons, pretty much everything they could get their hands on. Maybe after his visit to Skopije, Erlikhan will tell us about what he found out about the edged weapons in this part of the Balkans.

23rd May 2005, 01:09 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	interesting . about the "Ottoman period- etnoghraphic weapons of Balkan peoples else than Turks" subject, according to my opinion, just opinion open to all corrections, matter is densely related to 1-religion 2- distance to Istanbul and how much direct the control over the land is. Peoples like Albanians and Bosnians which entered Islam became politicaly equal citizens who could carry edged weapons. They continued to have and develop their own characteristic etnoghraphic arm styles under Ottoman rule,and we all know their characteristics from plenty of definite samples. Croatians,Hungarians were distant to Istanbul, total time under rule was relatively short, Turkish civil colonisation less or none, and control was weaker or indirect, which let their characteristic arms live too. western part of today's Romania was like that too. But , when it comes especially to Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece , as the control was direct, land strategically critical, Turkish colonisation was dense even reaching to 30-50s of the total population countrywide , local Christian people were not let to carry weapons,especially long ones I am sure strictly forbidden with perhaps very little exceptions. The environment wasnt suitable for the local types to live and evolve. For example, as all samples I have seen of what is called Greek yatagans and daggers carry clear Islamic prayers, dragon head and Turkish figures, I have to think they'd better be counted still of Turko-Islamic origin having geographical nuances, ordered by mostly Moslem customers to Turk or any other local Moslem or Christian craftmen. But of course this was till 1800s. Then, with the decrease and fall of Ottoman authority, rising nationalism and interest to ethnical roots, any model could be fastly recreated, developed ,modified using Turkish ones, or national types of pre-Ottoman middle age, any other types etc. This could explain the lack of characteristic national weapon samples from Ottoman era of before 19th c. in these Balkan countries. A good sample which can be attributed directly to these people must have some Christian religious or national signs. Are there such numerous samples that I dont know? regards Last edited by erlikhan; 23rd May 2005 at 08:00 PM.

25th May 2005, 09:07 PM	#9
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I have to add that these kamas are very similar to greek ones of north Greece. They were used from guerilla fighters of greek Macedonia before the liberation of 1913. Attached Images

18th May 2005, 02:39 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	EXTREMELY interesting and informative posting. I have to admit to being initially confused with the spelling of "kama" as opposed to "qama", with the former also being a Chinese weapon similar to a lohar, usually used in pairs, unless I'm mistaken. TVV, your observation about the central ridge vs fullers and the unique guard on the one kama were both well made.....I've seen the steel guard that's folded back into the blade itself before, I believe on some late Roman era pieces dating to about 400 AD. This is one of those threads that I'll be following closely and hoping to see more unfold, as regions like this that have been closed off or inaccessable to most of us for most of our lifetime have been all but forgotten and are just now coming into the light. As to the "dot within a circle" motif, that has to be the single most discussed blade/hilt decoration ever by now.... I just did a quick walk-through of my own pieces and found it on the blades of my Pakistani fighting axes, the bronzework on my chora and khyber knife, on the blade of my Persian axe/American Indian tomohawk, on the bone hilt and brass haft of my lohar and on the bone hilt of my knife from Crete (somehow, calling it a Cretan knife just feels wrong, even if it is spelled different than cretin ) and I clearly remember it on several pieces from elsewhere in India in the past. I suspect it's just because it's one of the easiest designs to punch or burn, needing only a steel or metal tube and a punch or nail, as opposed to other designs that require more complex tools to incorporate. Mike

18th May 2005, 09:19 AM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yes. Can reach Izmir villages by many ways. Still,what I think is, brass hilted samples look similar, and mass produced to me. About the one of your friend like Samakov museum, I agree it belongs to an older era for sure. I havent seen similar samples here. The fullers seem not to come together some distance before the tip as it is supposed to be. Could be shortened?

18th May 2005, 07:07 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Thanks Mike for your interest, your observation about the circle and dot motif is great: it is too common to be a secure way of identifying specimens. Erlikhan: yes, ot could be shortened, but I do not think it is likely, as the two fullers seem to converge towards the tip, and if only the tip of a bigger sword were used, then the guard would probably rule out that option as it seems an integral part of the blade. Unfortunately I do not have this qama in my collection to examine it better, but I will ask the same question to its owner.

21st May 2005, 11:46 AM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Fascinating thread, TVV and Erlikhan you brough some fascinating info, completely new to me and yes indeed many arms of our Eastearn European panoply specially in the Balkans are far too quickly identified as Ottoman Turk, when at least two thirds of the Empire was really out of Turkey and not directly and solely influenced by Istanbul's "Sublime Porte" and many weapons were based on strong local facture and design, I see also examples from Transylvania (powder flasks, saddles and scimitars) Bosnia and Croatia (daggers) Albania (daggers, pistols and muskets) Greek peninsula and its Islands (daggers and yathagans) that were catalogued simply as Ottoman, which is not wrong in many cases since the region mightve been part of the Empire but it is the complete mist and unrecognition to the nation that created them that sometimes frustrates me ...

23rd May 2005, 08:06 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Great points, Erlikhan. However, there were Christians who were permitted to carry weapons, for example some Christians occupying minor administrative positions, such as being in charge of high mountain passes, etc. Also, even before the 19th century there were quite a lot of outlaws in the Balkans, some of them Muslims and deserters from the Turkish army, and some were Christians. The latter are sometimes romanticized as rebels but the truth is the great majority of them had no nationalistic or revolutionary sentiments and took up arms with plundering as their sole motivation and attacked Muslims and Christians indiscriminately. There were also a number of small unsuccessful rebelions and uprisals, whose participants used a variety of weapons. When talking about Bulgarian types and variations of edged weapons I am not trying to separate them into Christian and Muslim examples, on the contrary, I believe the same weapon types were used by both Christians and Muslims, which can be evidenced by photographs of Bulgarian haiduts and revolutionaries, posing with kilidjes and yataghans. What I was trying to state in the begining of this thread was that in the lands that are now Bulgaria the edged weapons looked a bit different to the ones in Anataolia, who looked different from the ones in Greece, etc. There were local preferences in design and decoration, and there were perhaps one or two weapon types that are found in this region only, such as the mystery wepons from the start of this thread. And even those may not be Christian at all.

25th May 2005, 10:57 AM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. Do you think geographical differences of weapons from Bulgaria carry some signs or characteristics coming from pre Ottoman local styles? just as an idea, there are Pomaks in Bulgaria. Moslem Bulgars as far as I know? I dont know if they used to be efficient in military, but they should carry arms much more freely and perhaps could continue some kind of native Bulgar style, not? If they have own tribal weapon models, could be interesting to examine them.