Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ?

M ELEY · 19th November 2009, 06:19 PM

The sword measures just under 22" long with a 17" blade, so I guess it could be either a short hanger or long dagger. As already stated, the interesting wood grip cut with grooves with metal strapwork (damaged on one side). The alloy isn't white metal, silver, or lead (not soft enough). It could be tin or pewter (I suspect the latter). Note the small hole in the quillon, possibly for a chain link or knot? So...what is it? Euro hanger, colonial piece, Spanish espada? Dagger or sword? Late 18th, early or mid-19th? Thanks all.

katana · 19th November 2009, 06:24 PM

Hi
I would not rule out Africa......there are a number of similar swords originating from West Africa.....Although I have not seen one with the 'spiral' decorated hilt.

All the best
David

katana · 19th November 2009, 06:58 PM

Just a quick thought....the metal 'spiral' could be a zinc alloy. Africans are masters of utilising any resource. They obtain the zinc alloy from the outer casing of dry cell batteries. (invented late 19th C).

Bearing in mind many areas are fairly remote from electrical supplies, the use of batteries by colonalists was increasingly more widespread as the 20th C progressed. Discharged batteries were not re-chargeable and discarded.

A fairly similar sword from Africa
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=toureg

Regards David

.

M ELEY · 20th November 2009, 02:31 AM

Hmmm...I guess it was presumptive of me to not think of a possible ethnographic origin. It could indeed be African, but I still think this piece has some aging to it. I also was thinking about zinc, but being that it's use came later in the 19th, I dismissed it. Is there any test I could do to positively identify the alloy in the hilt? I still think it is tin or pewter, but not sure.
If it is African, I hope it's Algerian or Moroccan (Pirate!!

), but the piece looks more European/N American to me.-

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2009, 03:55 AM

Mark, beautifully done!!! Congratulations

It really feels great to master the mysteries of these things, and its fun once you get going.
This certainly does not resemble any espada ancha I've seen, though these did get pretty crude in later times, and by the mid 19th century were essentially large Bowie knives. It does not rule out the innovative edged weapons created by Mexican blacksmiths later in the 19th century, which would be hard to accurately identify.
The unusual D guard and scrolled overlap at the pommel, which seems more characteristic for a quillon terminal and the gadrooned metal on the grip could lend toward Africa. With the style and shortened blade, maybe it could be a dirk from the Maghreb's 'nautical enterprises' ?
Interesting though!!!!
I look forward to your postings coming with this newfound skill!!! yay!
All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 20th November 2009, 08:18 AM

Thank you, Jim and David for responding.
David, the sword you mentioned with the zinc hilt was Taureg, a people from the Maghreb, so perhaps my jest wasn't too far off. it would be nice if it were associated in that part of the continent for my collecting purposes.

Jim, all I can say is...Aaaarrrr! Have you ever seen a gadrooned African grip like this before? It was what attracted me to the piece in the first place. Unusual.

Anyway, any suggestions as to testing metal just to see if it's zinc, tin, or ?? Also, a date? Mid- to late- 19th, I guess?

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2009, 09:40 PM

Hi Mark,
Actually, in a word...no, but Im always curious about these composite, very workmanlike weapons, which would certainly be most likely to have been assembled by makeshift armouries or blacksmiths. As we have discussed, the high times of piracy and adventure did not end with that of the "Golden Age', but continued worldwide to this day of course. The 'Spanish Main' existed into the 20th century through the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, Philippines and South America, with the far eastern sector in Spanish regions of the Maghreb.
Then there were 'Barbary Pirates' et al, and this I think presents most of the confusion in these 'worked' and assembled ersatz weapons.

I feel like I've seen something with the strap like guard which extends as a D guard, and protruding pommel strap with scrolled terminal, it seems to recall the 17th century English hangers seen in some cases. The 'heavy spiralled cage' is another representation of hangers hilts of 18th century, but only in much finer banded work or spiraled flutes in wood or horn design. The crude heavy bars and the metal itself seem more 20th century. I'm not sure about pewter, which I think was more a cast metal than workable sheeted type, and this seems too heavy for tin, looks more like aluminum or alloyed sheet steel. Nothing from the early types and periods this appears to represent.

The blade, and the hilt seem much earlier than this unusual grip cage, and it seems that a dirk or Bowie type weapon was fashioned here. I guess thats about the limit of my 'forensics' interpretation

As always, looking forward to thoughts of others.

Arrrr!!! You're always good for these conundrum pieces Capt. Mark!!!

All the best,
Jim

19th November 2009, 06:58 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Just a quick thought....the metal 'spiral' could be a zinc alloy. Africans are masters of utilising any resource. They obtain the zinc alloy from the outer casing of dry cell batteries. (invented late 19th C). Bearing in mind many areas are fairly remote from electrical supplies, the use of batteries by colonalists was increasingly more widespread as the 20th C progressed. Discharged batteries were not re-chargeable and discarded. A fairly similar sword from Africa http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=toureg Regards David . Attached Images

19th November 2009, 06:19 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,148	The sword measures just under 22" long with a 17" blade, so I guess it could be either a short hanger or long dagger. As already stated, the interesting wood grip cut with grooves with metal strapwork (damaged on one side). The alloy isn't white metal, silver, or lead (not soft enough). It could be tin or pewter (I suspect the latter). Note the small hole in the quillon, possibly for a chain link or knot? So...what is it? Euro hanger, colonial piece, Spanish espada? Dagger or sword? Late 18th, early or mid-19th? Thanks all.

19th November 2009, 06:24 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi I would not rule out Africa......there are a number of similar swords originating from West Africa.....Although I have not seen one with the 'spiral' decorated hilt. All the best David

20th November 2009, 02:31 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,148	Hmmm...I guess it was presumptive of me to not think of a possible ethnographic origin. It could indeed be African, but I still think this piece has some aging to it. I also was thinking about zinc, but being that it's use came later in the 19th, I dismissed it. Is there any test I could do to positively identify the alloy in the hilt? I still think it is tin or pewter, but not sure. If it is African, I hope it's Algerian or Moroccan (Pirate!! ), but the piece looks more European/N American to me.-

20th November 2009, 03:55 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,214	Mark, beautifully done!!! Congratulations It really feels great to master the mysteries of these things, and its fun once you get going. This certainly does not resemble any espada ancha I've seen, though these did get pretty crude in later times, and by the mid 19th century were essentially large Bowie knives. It does not rule out the innovative edged weapons created by Mexican blacksmiths later in the 19th century, which would be hard to accurately identify. The unusual D guard and scrolled overlap at the pommel, which seems more characteristic for a quillon terminal and the gadrooned metal on the grip could lend toward Africa. With the style and shortened blade, maybe it could be a dirk from the Maghreb's 'nautical enterprises' ? Interesting though!!!! I look forward to your postings coming with this newfound skill!!! yay! All the best, Jim

20th November 2009, 08:18 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,148	Thank you, Jim and David for responding. David, the sword you mentioned with the zinc hilt was Taureg, a people from the Maghreb, so perhaps my jest wasn't too far off. it would be nice if it were associated in that part of the continent for my collecting purposes. Jim, all I can say is...Aaaarrrr! Have you ever seen a gadrooned African grip like this before? It was what attracted me to the piece in the first place. Unusual. Anyway, any suggestions as to testing metal just to see if it's zinc, tin, or ?? Also, a date? Mid- to late- 19th, I guess?

20th November 2009, 09:40 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,214	Hi Mark, Actually, in a word...no, but Im always curious about these composite, very workmanlike weapons, which would certainly be most likely to have been assembled by makeshift armouries or blacksmiths. As we have discussed, the high times of piracy and adventure did not end with that of the "Golden Age', but continued worldwide to this day of course. The 'Spanish Main' existed into the 20th century through the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico, Philippines and South America, with the far eastern sector in Spanish regions of the Maghreb. Then there were 'Barbary Pirates' et al, and this I think presents most of the confusion in these 'worked' and assembled ersatz weapons. I feel like I've seen something with the strap like guard which extends as a D guard, and protruding pommel strap with scrolled terminal, it seems to recall the 17th century English hangers seen in some cases. The 'heavy spiralled cage' is another representation of hangers hilts of 18th century, but only in much finer banded work or spiraled flutes in wood or horn design. The crude heavy bars and the metal itself seem more 20th century. I'm not sure about pewter, which I think was more a cast metal than workable sheeted type, and this seems too heavy for tin, looks more like aluminum or alloyed sheet steel. Nothing from the early types and periods this appears to represent. The blade, and the hilt seem much earlier than this unusual grip cage, and it seems that a dirk or Bowie type weapon was fashioned here. I guess thats about the limit of my 'forensics' interpretation As always, looking forward to thoughts of others. Arrrr!!! You're always good for these conundrum pieces Capt. Mark!!! All the best, Jim