An Extremely Rare North Italian Arquebusier's Auxiliary Armament Saber, ca. 1510-15

cornelistromp · 18th October 2009, 07:10 PM

Hello Samuel and Michael,

interesting discussion

the Sabre (Russian Sabla, polish szabla, Magyar's szablya) probably has been imported from the south of Russia to Europe also parallel there were obviously influences from the orient.(re;Attila's sword 850-950 Weltliche schatzkammer Vienna.)
the definition of the sabre is; a sidearm with a long curved blade and a asymmetric grip often bent towards the forward quillon, which has no pommel as a sword but can have a pommel cap instead. (Heribert Seitz Blankwaffen 1
p 183).

if we use this definition on Michaels sword/sabre, it is not a sabre because of it's straight grip and hilt.
Seitz also mentions that in the 16 Century the sword makers in Graz and Passau hat the expression DEUTSCHGEFASSTE SAEBEL/ GERMAN HILTED SABRE for a type of sword with curved blade and hilts with pommel. Also the swiss Sabre is part of this group.
this statement makes Michaels sword, belonging to this group, a sabre

regards from Holland

Samik · 18th October 2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Seits also mentions that in the 16 Century the sword makers in Graz and Passau hat the expression DEUTSCHGEFASSTE SAEBEL/ GERMAN HILTED SABRE for a type of sword with curved blade and hilts with pommel. Also the swiss Sabre is part of this group.
this statement makes Michaels sword, belonging to this group, a sabre

regards from Holland

Thank you very much for the clarification cornelistromp. Guess I have to settle for a sabre then

Cheers,
Samuel

ariel · 19th October 2009, 03:31 AM

Great saber, congratulations!
European weapons are not my area, but I have to dabble in them a little from time to time.
Thus, an amateurish question: would it be correct to make a connection between the "cat's head" pommel on your saber and Venetian schiavona?

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 05:37 PM

Hello,
The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier?

Thanks!

Matchlock · 20th October 2009, 05:41 PM

Hi Cornelis and Samuel,

Thanks for ensuring me that the thing is definitely a saber.

Ariel, I do consent that what I, for reasons of historical art terminnology, have come to call the late Gothic trefoliate pommel can certainly be seen as a formal predecessor of the 'cat's head' shapes on later schiavonas although we must not forget the vast variety of Late Gothic and Early Renaissance stylistic elements many of which were still 'alive' one or two centuries later, especially in Italy.

To me, the significant square pommels of the ca. 1450 to 1500 Venetian swords seem to be closer relatives to the later schiavona pommels.

Also, as to the discussion of the relatively refined hilt on my saber and its consequent dating I enclose more North Italian, mostly Venetian, sword hilts, all of late 15th to early 16th c. date (the one on b/w ill. 45 with a later ca. 1550 guard but retaining its trefoliate pommel and grip of ca. 1500), two of them featuring a horizontal side ring, all preserved at the Palazzo Ducale, Venice.
So when I sort of open the dating range of my saber to 'ca. 1520-5', do we have a deal then?

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 20th October 2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Hello,
The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier?

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

I think it was most of all the relatively light workmanship (which is far from the solidity of a Katzbalger) and the missing of a pronounced yelman on the blade that convinced me that this was not an item of primary but rather of auxiliary armament, meaning that the main weapan for this landsknecht to rely on must have been an arquebus.

Please note the small swords resp. sabers of the arquebusiers in Ruprecht Heller's painting The Battle of Pavia, National Museum Stockholm (dated 1529, the battle took place in 1525) with their developed hilts! (s images attached). These hilts are very close to that on my saber while the pommels in this painting are what we would normally assign to the 1550's-60's!

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 21st October 2009, 08:08 AM

Hi Michael,

the sword hilts in the painting look a bit like this one.

Best regards

cornelistromp · 21st October 2009, 08:34 AM

Ewart Oakeshott states that the early venetian but also the later form of landknechtssword (later forms are developed landsknecht hilts with a half developed basket or a full basket, in the picture H en J) are both ancestors of the Schiavona hilt.

picture 2 quote from Ewart Oakeshott European arms and armour;
"it is generally held that some of the late form of landknecht sword hilts had a lot to do with the development of the schiavona too".regards from Holland

18th October 2009, 07:10 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hello Samuel and Michael, interesting discussion the Sabre (Russian Sabla, polish szabla, Magyar's szablya) probably has been imported from the south of Russia to Europe also parallel there were obviously influences from the orient.(re;Attila's sword 850-950 Weltliche schatzkammer Vienna.) the definition of the sabre is; a sidearm with a long curved blade and a asymmetric grip often bent towards the forward quillon, which has no pommel as a sword but can have a pommel cap instead. (Heribert Seitz Blankwaffen 1 p 183). if we use this definition on Michaels sword/sabre, it is not a sabre because of it's straight grip and hilt. Seitz also mentions that in the 16 Century the sword makers in Graz and Passau hat the expression DEUTSCHGEFASSTE SAEBEL/ GERMAN HILTED SABRE for a type of sword with curved blade and hilts with pommel. Also the swiss Sabre is part of this group. this statement makes Michaels sword, belonging to this group, a sabre regards from Holland Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 19th October 2009 at 08:02 AM.

20th October 2009, 05:41 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis and Samuel, Thanks for ensuring me that the thing is definitely a saber. Ariel, I do consent that what I, for reasons of historical art terminnology, have come to call the late Gothic trefoliate pommel can certainly be seen as a formal predecessor of the 'cat's head' shapes on later schiavonas although we must not forget the vast variety of Late Gothic and Early Renaissance stylistic elements many of which were still 'alive' one or two centuries later, especially in Italy. To me, the significant square pommels of the ca. 1450 to 1500 Venetian swords seem to be closer relatives to the later schiavona pommels. Also, as to the discussion of the relatively refined hilt on my saber and its consequent dating I enclose more North Italian, mostly Venetian, sword hilts, all of late 15th to early 16th c. date (the one on b/w ill. 45 with a later ca. 1550 guard but retaining its trefoliate pommel and grip of ca. 1500), two of them featuring a horizontal side ring, all preserved at the Palazzo Ducale, Venice. So when I sort of open the dating range of my saber to 'ca. 1520-5', do we have a deal then? Best, Michael Attached Images

21st October 2009, 08:08 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, the sword hilts in the painting look a bit like this one. Best regards Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st October 2009 at 08:35 AM.

21st October 2009, 08:34 AM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	late landsknechtswords ancestors of the schiavona? Ewart Oakeshott states that the early venetian but also the later form of landknechtssword (later forms are developed landsknecht hilts with a half developed basket or a full basket, in the picture H en J) are both ancestors of the Schiavona hilt. picture 2 quote from Ewart Oakeshott European arms and armour; "it is generally held that some of the late form of landknecht sword hilts had a lot to do with the development of the schiavona too".regards from Holland Attached Images

19th October 2009, 03:31 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Great saber, congratulations! European weapons are not my area, but I have to dabble in them a little from time to time. Thus, an amateurish question: would it be correct to make a connection between the "cat's head" pommel on your saber and Venetian schiavona?

19th October 2009, 05:37 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hello, The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier? Thanks!