Another What Have We Here

tom hyle · 14th May 2005, 05:24 PM

An interesting idea, but certainly not a nimcha type saif. I don't think I've seen one with a blade so wide, but they are famous for imported blades (they seem a coastal weapon to me). The reason I say "no" is the guard. It is structured differently from a nimcha guard, though the quillons are of square section, which is a similarity(!). First, there are too few of them, and there don't seem to "be" missing ones. Second though is the basic structure. Nimcha guards I've seen are made two ways; (A) one (Yemen, Swahili, etc. AFAIK) is a single piece with a hole poked thru it for the tang (and sometimes an annoe, probably welded on). These are typically forged-surfaced. (B) The other (AFAIK Moorocan and IMHO likely Maghreb? Though Magreb Berbers have a known sword that seems a version of the type for pommel and blade, but is guardless.) seems to be welded up with two cheek plates forming two sides of the tang slot and the ends of the quillons welded between them (this is somewhat speculative; I've never etched these. They are smooth/ground/filed surfaced, and I once thought them castings, actually, because of the surface, and because the tang slot is sometimes hollower inside than at the ends, but I've seen them to show fibrousness appearing to be wrought iron and forging marks. In any event, they, too have only a slot for the tang. The structure I've proposed is seen with later medieval European swords.). Both types have very short, almost vestigial, lagnets (bottom only) that run very close to the surface of the blade, and are often "clenched" down to it, with or without a coinlike soft metal "slug" in between. Turkish hilts are different, and are essentially similar to the guard part of a tulwar; they have a large hooplike opening that admits handle material and/or adhesive. The lagnets (upper and lower) run off from the edges of this hoop, and so bind the surface of the handle and run considerably higher than the surface of the blade (sitting outside the sheath) as we see here. The quillons of this type I've seen are welded on, the hoop having been formed in two halves (structurally similar to B above, but a much wider and rounded opening.), and are usually round, square but rotated 45 degrees or otherwise rhomboid (bladelike) or flattened section, but not usually square with this orientation. Arabian per se saif may be, but I think it's like the Turkish ones, from what I've seen. If anyone can tell us more about the structure of Arabian, Persian, Moorocan, Slavic, and Sudannic (or any other) versions of the four lagnet (Turkic? Persian?) hilt, I'd appreciate it.
The round overlay you mention is actually particularly similar to the rivet burrs on the gun stock I mentioned, which a similar one to recently appeared in some photos; maybe from a museum? Maybe from Wolviex (did I spell that right?

) ??? I posted mine to the old swap forum if that exists; I think I called it a "gun handle" or "musket handle" in the title, but there may have been other words, too.....

RSWORD · 14th May 2005, 10:55 PM

I actually wasn't referring to the entire sword being a Saif although you do find Saif with European blades of Polish/Hungarian origin. I was only speaking of the hilt only. Because of its peculiar shape I was suggesting the hilt, and only the hilt, might be a reworked handle from another sword(and in my thoughts, a Zanzibar Saif) that was matched with the existing guard and blade. The hilt just doesn't look right for a good ole Polish or Turkish Karabella hilt.

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 11:55 AM

Why not? It looks like one to me. the tang band is really nothing out of the ordinary.....

ariel · 15th May 2005, 04:01 PM

At a first glance it does look like a typical karabela. However, the more I look, the more I agree with RSWORD. I have three S.Arabian swords, including a Zanzibar "nimcha" and all of them have the same "bolster" constructed as a wrap-around iron sheet. The langets also look Aarabian: flattened and circularly incised at the tips. Very much like my real nimcha (as per Elgood).
I do not think the hilt was reworked from a Moroccan/Zanzibar nimcha: their configuration includes a semicircular space under the pommel (for the pinkie) and would severely compromised the contour of the reworked handle.
I think it is the original contour, and the sword is an Arabian one.
Not Turkish and definitely not Balkan, Hungarian, Polish or otherwise Slavic.
We should call it a Saif for want of a better word.
As for Karabela, let's remember that one of the potential origins of the word is Iraqi city of Karbala, although it (IMHO) just as fallacious as "cara e bella" and "Karb'Allah". Most likely, it is derived from the name of a Turkish town Karabel, near Izmir.

Rick · 15th May 2005, 05:55 PM

Nimcha-esque hilt , wide curved blade ; perhaps a corsair's sword from N. Africa ?
Barbary pirates and all that .

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 07:40 PM

The long ferule does look like a feature common on Arabian (per se) saifs, but are those not usually wire wraps? And do they not ordinarily have narrower grips? Does one see iron tang bands and overlays in Arabia? I think only brass or silver are usual? They are seen in iron in both Afghanistan and Caucases. Also, I have seen a similar feature at least once on an Afghan sword. The pommel shape is one I see a lot on knives from E European Moslems, but I have indeed also seen a similar shape on a type of variant kodme or flyssa. The shape as I've seen it on them is more angular, but otherwise similar, but this is identical to the European ones to my memory. It is possible it is a N African sword, or even Arabian, though that seems "off" to me; just not that it is a "nimcha", or, I think, any part of one. I still think it is E European etc. I do not see any indication that the grip is reworked. I think....?.....I don't know if the guards like this are trackable for region (though I'm trying to find out). If it had super skinny lagnets with parrabolic sides that'd be pretty Arabian. If it had diamond-section ridge lines to lagnets and quillons, that'd be pretty African. But this particular variety of the cross-shaped guard with shortish triangular lagnets seems fairly region-neutral for any markers I know what they mean; not to say it can't be IDd by the guard; but it's not helping me much. The square quillons may indeed be a mark for Arabia; I'd like to hear what Radu and Wolviex think of that though; they both seem to have seen a lot of European ones....

wolviex · 15th May 2005, 09:15 PM

I think that Arabian plot could be correct while I have many problems to qualify this sabre as Turkish or Polish. I was trying to find some features which are characteristic for these countries, but I didn't thought about other ones like Arabia - and this was my fault. The problem is that quillons, rivets, this metal aplication around handle - doesn't look familiar to me, only with small exception. Now after RSword's and Ariel's arguments, which I didn't thought about earlier, I'm ready to exlude any Polish origin. Unfortunately Tom, quillons as I said it, doesn't look familiar to those I saw in our collection, except this "triangular langnets" which happen indeed in Polish, Turkish and I belive, almost every Karabela sabre.

Ragards!

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 10:42 PM

Yeah, they seem widespread, the triangular lagnets, and they may well occur in Arabia, too. The iron feruling piece is I think maybe a bit unusual for anywhere, though it sounds like several of us have seen somewhat similar things from a variety of regions....and if a pommel shape is in Moslem E Europe, and in N Africa, it wouldn't be surprising to see it at least once in a while in Arabia....I've recently become very curious about regional ID and origin for this style guard; I have no big knowledge; I have to study a lot more examples, obviously. I think it will be an important regional tracker if we figure it out, and it may be very simple or very hard; for me it is just an idea, and I may pursue it with a variety of vigor; I doubt much will occur soon. But it is on my mind, so I suspect I will have my eye on that particular feature of swords I see for a while.

14th May 2005, 05:24 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	An interesting idea, but certainly not a nimcha type saif. I don't think I've seen one with a blade so wide, but they are famous for imported blades (they seem a coastal weapon to me). The reason I say "no" is the guard. It is structured differently from a nimcha guard, though the quillons are of square section, which is a similarity(!). First, there are too few of them, and there don't seem to "be" missing ones. Second though is the basic structure. Nimcha guards I've seen are made two ways; (A) one (Yemen, Swahili, etc. AFAIK) is a single piece with a hole poked thru it for the tang (and sometimes an annoe, probably welded on). These are typically forged-surfaced. (B) The other (AFAIK Moorocan and IMHO likely Maghreb? Though Magreb Berbers have a known sword that seems a version of the type for pommel and blade, but is guardless.) seems to be welded up with two cheek plates forming two sides of the tang slot and the ends of the quillons welded between them (this is somewhat speculative; I've never etched these. They are smooth/ground/filed surfaced, and I once thought them castings, actually, because of the surface, and because the tang slot is sometimes hollower inside than at the ends, but I've seen them to show fibrousness appearing to be wrought iron and forging marks. In any event, they, too have only a slot for the tang. The structure I've proposed is seen with later medieval European swords.). Both types have very short, almost vestigial, lagnets (bottom only) that run very close to the surface of the blade, and are often "clenched" down to it, with or without a coinlike soft metal "slug" in between. Turkish hilts are different, and are essentially similar to the guard part of a tulwar; they have a large hooplike opening that admits handle material and/or adhesive. The lagnets (upper and lower) run off from the edges of this hoop, and so bind the surface of the handle and run considerably higher than the surface of the blade (sitting outside the sheath) as we see here. The quillons of this type I've seen are welded on, the hoop having been formed in two halves (structurally similar to B above, but a much wider and rounded opening.), and are usually round, square but rotated 45 degrees or otherwise rhomboid (bladelike) or flattened section, but not usually square with this orientation. Arabian per se saif may be, but I think it's like the Turkish ones, from what I've seen. If anyone can tell us more about the structure of Arabian, Persian, Moorocan, Slavic, and Sudannic (or any other) versions of the four lagnet (Turkic? Persian?) hilt, I'd appreciate it. The round overlay you mention is actually particularly similar to the rivet burrs on the gun stock I mentioned, which a similar one to recently appeared in some photos; maybe from a museum? Maybe from Wolviex (did I spell that right? ) ??? I posted mine to the old swap forum if that exists; I think I called it a "gun handle" or "musket handle" in the title, but there may have been other words, too..... Last edited by tom hyle; 14th May 2005 at 05:35 PM. Reason: spelling; horrible, incomprehensivle spelloing

14th May 2005, 10:55 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,094	I actually wasn't referring to the entire sword being a Saif although you do find Saif with European blades of Polish/Hungarian origin. I was only speaking of the hilt only. Because of its peculiar shape I was suggesting the hilt, and only the hilt, might be a reworked handle from another sword(and in my thoughts, a Zanzibar Saif) that was matched with the existing guard and blade. The hilt just doesn't look right for a good ole Polish or Turkish Karabella hilt.

15th May 2005, 11:55 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Why not? It looks like one to me. the tang band is really nothing out of the ordinary.....

15th May 2005, 04:01 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	At a first glance it does look like a typical karabela. However, the more I look, the more I agree with RSWORD. I have three S.Arabian swords, including a Zanzibar "nimcha" and all of them have the same "bolster" constructed as a wrap-around iron sheet. The langets also look Aarabian: flattened and circularly incised at the tips. Very much like my real nimcha (as per Elgood). I do not think the hilt was reworked from a Moroccan/Zanzibar nimcha: their configuration includes a semicircular space under the pommel (for the pinkie) and would severely compromised the contour of the reworked handle. I think it is the original contour, and the sword is an Arabian one. Not Turkish and definitely not Balkan, Hungarian, Polish or otherwise Slavic. We should call it a Saif for want of a better word. As for Karabela, let's remember that one of the potential origins of the word is Iraqi city of Karbala, although it (IMHO) just as fallacious as "cara e bella" and "Karb'Allah". Most likely, it is derived from the name of a Turkish town Karabel, near Izmir.

15th May 2005, 05:55 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Nimcha-esque hilt , wide curved blade ; perhaps a corsair's sword from N. Africa ? Barbary pirates and all that .

15th May 2005, 07:40 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The long ferule does look like a feature common on Arabian (per se) saifs, but are those not usually wire wraps? And do they not ordinarily have narrower grips? Does one see iron tang bands and overlays in Arabia? I think only brass or silver are usual? They are seen in iron in both Afghanistan and Caucases. Also, I have seen a similar feature at least once on an Afghan sword. The pommel shape is one I see a lot on knives from E European Moslems, but I have indeed also seen a similar shape on a type of variant kodme or flyssa. The shape as I've seen it on them is more angular, but otherwise similar, but this is identical to the European ones to my memory. It is possible it is a N African sword, or even Arabian, though that seems "off" to me; just not that it is a "nimcha", or, I think, any part of one. I still think it is E European etc. I do not see any indication that the grip is reworked. I think....?.....I don't know if the guards like this are trackable for region (though I'm trying to find out). If it had super skinny lagnets with parrabolic sides that'd be pretty Arabian. If it had diamond-section ridge lines to lagnets and quillons, that'd be pretty African. But this particular variety of the cross-shaped guard with shortish triangular lagnets seems fairly region-neutral for any markers I know what they mean; not to say it can't be IDd by the guard; but it's not helping me much. The square quillons may indeed be a mark for Arabia; I'd like to hear what Radu and Wolviex think of that though; they both seem to have seen a lot of European ones....

15th May 2005, 09:15 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 421	I think that Arabian plot could be correct while I have many problems to qualify this sabre as Turkish or Polish. I was trying to find some features which are characteristic for these countries, but I didn't thought about other ones like Arabia - and this was my fault. The problem is that quillons, rivets, this metal aplication around handle - doesn't look familiar to me, only with small exception. Now after RSword's and Ariel's arguments, which I didn't thought about earlier, I'm ready to exlude any Polish origin. Unfortunately Tom, quillons as I said it, doesn't look familiar to those I saw in our collection, except this "triangular langnets" which happen indeed in Polish, Turkish and I belive, almost every Karabela sabre. Ragards!

15th May 2005, 10:42 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, they seem widespread, the triangular lagnets, and they may well occur in Arabia, too. The iron feruling piece is I think maybe a bit unusual for anywhere, though it sounds like several of us have seen somewhat similar things from a variety of regions....and if a pommel shape is in Moslem E Europe, and in N Africa, it wouldn't be surprising to see it at least once in a while in Arabia....I've recently become very curious about regional ID and origin for this style guard; I have no big knowledge; I have to study a lot more examples, obviously. I think it will be an important regional tracker if we figure it out, and it may be very simple or very hard; for me it is just an idea, and I may pursue it with a variety of vigor; I doubt much will occur soon. But it is on my mind, so I suspect I will have my eye on that particular feature of swords I see for a while.