European(?) Hunting(?) Whatsit

Gavin Nugent · 13th September 2009, 07:00 AM

A nice piece at a very good price.

From what I have read and also within the reference book by R.D.C.Evans, there are 18th century plug bayonets of this style found in Germany. Pages 88-101 show this and writings on pages 93 and 94 talk of the Germanic hunting bayonets. Mr Evans also talks of the VIVAT PANDUR markings found on these. The markings on this one presented may be of a similar quality marking, certainly worthy of future research.
I'll read further and see if this mark is actually found within Mr Evans fantastic book.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2009, 04:03 PM

Spot on Gav!!!
The R.D.C. Evans book does carry great information on these, and the plug bayonet itself carried on vestigially as a hunting weapon long after its use as such had diminished, particularly in Spain and its provincial regions.

In the case of this example, which is fantastic, indications are for East Europe possibly, and of probably of latter 18th century. The vestigial crossguard and shell correspond to the smallsword and courtsword type allusions that were often favored, as hunting was of course key to the gentry.

The interesting shape of the point on this also reminds me of the number of classifications in the 1962 reference book by Gerhard Seifert, "Schwert degen Sabel" in which this shape is actually termed 'pandour point'.
The pandours, as previously discussed, were often thought of as fierce and intimidating predators, and became a decorative element in motif on these types of weapons in the sense of hubris and bravado.

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 13th September 2009, 06:09 PM

Great "Pandour" plug bayonet ... great price, too.
The vestigial shell guard, remnant of hunting swords, and the cup shape ferrule, are German details that influenced plug bayonets from other countries ... Portugal, for one.
This specimen would certainly be from the XVIII century.
Fernando

CourseEight · 13th September 2009, 07:29 PM

Thanks so much everyone! I'll be ordering R.D.C. Evans' book directly. Thrilled that it is older and better than I had hoped!

I'd love to hear any other information that is out there, especially about the markings!

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2009, 10:35 PM

Roger Evans is a brilliant researcher and has written on bayonets and every aspect of history on them imaginable for many years, some time ago used to write a monthly installent titled "Cold Steel".
He still writes regularly in "The Armourer" magazine in England, and I just renewed my subscription when I found out he was still writing there.

The information in "The Plug Bayonet" is amazingly detailed, especially in information on markings and motif, which is often a great asset in the study of swords, especially hunting swords and associated motif. These kinds of motof often found thier way to court swords and officers swords in the 18th century and into the 19th as officers were of course, gentry, and the same attention to popular fashion prevailed.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 15th September 2009, 12:29 PM

Hi Radleigh,
the 'lames' is French for blades .....so perhaps French / French colonial made or retailed ?

Regards David

fernando · 15th September 2009, 01:44 PM

Hi David,

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Radleigh,
the 'lames' is French for blades .....so perhaps French / French colonial made or retailed ?

Regards David

Could well be!
... and Turck, the way it is spelled, could be the maker's/trader's name?!

BTW, i hope this is a sunny day in Kent

Fernando

13th September 2009, 07:00 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A nice Piece A nice piece at a very good price. From what I have read and also within the reference book by R.D.C.Evans, there are 18th century plug bayonets of this style found in Germany. Pages 88-101 show this and writings on pages 93 and 94 talk of the Germanic hunting bayonets. Mr Evans also talks of the VIVAT PANDUR markings found on these. The markings on this one presented may be of a similar quality marking, certainly worthy of future research. I'll read further and see if this mark is actually found within Mr Evans fantastic book. Gav

13th September 2009, 04:03 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Spot on Gav!!! The R.D.C. Evans book does carry great information on these, and the plug bayonet itself carried on vestigially as a hunting weapon long after its use as such had diminished, particularly in Spain and its provincial regions. In the case of this example, which is fantastic, indications are for East Europe possibly, and of probably of latter 18th century. The vestigial crossguard and shell correspond to the smallsword and courtsword type allusions that were often favored, as hunting was of course key to the gentry. The interesting shape of the point on this also reminds me of the number of classifications in the 1962 reference book by Gerhard Seifert, "Schwert degen Sabel" in which this shape is actually termed 'pandour point'. The pandours, as previously discussed, were often thought of as fierce and intimidating predators, and became a decorative element in motif on these types of weapons in the sense of hubris and bravado. Best regards, Jim

13th September 2009, 06:09 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great "Pandour" plug bayonet ... great price, too. The vestigial shell guard, remnant of hunting swords, and the cup shape ferrule, are German details that influenced plug bayonets from other countries ... Portugal, for one. This specimen would certainly be from the XVIII century. Fernando

13th September 2009, 07:29 PM	#4
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much everyone! I'll be ordering R.D.C. Evans' book directly. Thrilled that it is older and better than I had hoped! I'd love to hear any other information that is out there, especially about the markings! --Radleigh

13th September 2009, 10:35 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Roger Evans is a brilliant researcher and has written on bayonets and every aspect of history on them imaginable for many years, some time ago used to write a monthly installent titled "Cold Steel". He still writes regularly in "The Armourer" magazine in England, and I just renewed my subscription when I found out he was still writing there. The information in "The Plug Bayonet" is amazingly detailed, especially in information on markings and motif, which is often a great asset in the study of swords, especially hunting swords and associated motif. These kinds of motof often found thier way to court swords and officers swords in the 18th century and into the 19th as officers were of course, gentry, and the same attention to popular fashion prevailed. Best regards, Jim

15th September 2009, 12:29 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Radleigh, the 'lames' is French for blades .....so perhaps French / French colonial made or retailed ? Regards David