Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2

Rick · 11th May 2005, 10:12 PM

Fifty more minutes ?!
Oboy !
< Rubs hands even harder>

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the first DVD of this film released will not be the extended version .

I have been fooled a couple of times by this Hollywood distribution trick .

M.carter · 11th May 2005, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the first DVD of this film released will not be the extended version .

As usual

Rick · 11th May 2005, 10:50 PM

You know you spoke of the feeling you got at Saladin's tomb .
Although I have never been to the Middle East . I have felt that same thing at St. Basil's in Moscow for some reason .

Gettysburg battlefield is like walking into a Van de Graff generator .
Even though we were not there when history was made the energy still lingers ,for me, in a palpable way .

Rivkin · 12th May 2005, 12:33 AM

Unfortunately, I can't find my books (so I have to apologize for not oftering references _yet_), so I have to rely on memory and Britannica:

Salahadin (himself a kurd) was from the family of atabegs - Turk-seljuk warlords, who were supposedly "protecting" Baghdad Caliphat. With time this family and its seljuk's was becoming more and more powerful.

In 1169 Salahadin marched into Cairo, slaughtered around 40,000 black mamluks (Nubians etc.), their families, disbanded other parts of Cairo garrison and replaced it with his seljuks.

Concerning Salahadin's "white" mamluks he was the first one to introduce them into Egypt. Till that time only seljuks used to purchase slave boys from Caucasus and Kipchak territories (eventually stretching from Khorezm to Hungary), and put them into service as "guard" units. With Salahadin this practise was greatly expanded, mostly through buying kipchaks from Cuman Kipchak regions (Modern Crimea and Ukraine) and northern caucasus kipchaks.

Concerning the languages he spoke - it's certain he did speak arabic, I did not see the movie, but it seems natural for him to use arabic as a diplomatic language.

Now concerning languages that were used by mamluks among themselves in general it was always their own language - turks spoke turkish dialects (kipchak), mongols I think spoke kipchak too,
georgians spoke kartli, adighas- adighe, other caucasians (armenians, chechens etc.) spoke usually adighe or kartli, depending on which one was dominant.

Concerning that only kipchaks and circassians were mamluks - Ali-Bey, Mehmed Beg and most of post XVII century mamluks were georgians (megrel tribe, western georgia), some of prominent mamluk leaders before were Mongol or Seljuk. It's important that in arabic literature word "cherkes" can mean anything from around Caucasus.

It's interesting that mamluks were so isolated in their national community that very often they did not develop any islamic identity (great example is Rustam's memoirs and to some extent famous correspendence of XIX century mamluks with russian tzar and georgian kings).

rahman · 12th May 2005, 06:16 AM

Empu Gandreng tempering (nyepuhan) with his lips on the red hot blade for the infamous keris of Ken Aroek. Sorry guys, can't show you Empu Nyi sombro doing nyepuhan with her lips. I'll get banned from this forum!

STOP! STOP! Can someone please tell this Malay prince that a keris is NOT a stabbing weapon but a holy talisman?

These are screenshots of some of the best Malay movies produced in Singapore in the 1960s. You can see the keris in its (Malay) cultural context. Check out others at www.kampungnet.com.sg

More to come...

nechesh · 12th May 2005, 11:51 AM

Thanks for the pics Rahman. Interesting the completely wrong (to my understanding at least) grip and thrust used in the second pic. Feel free to send me that pic of empu Sombro in a private e-mail.

rahman · 12th May 2005, 02:29 PM

No, there was no pic... just pulling your 'leg'

That grip in the second pic is not unusual, but you can also see the normal grip in other pics in our gallery.

The interesting thing is, I've been playing with the Jogja and Solo keris and I can easily pivot the hilt from a normal to a reverse grip as in the photo. But I can never do that with a Malay hilt. Guess there's still a lot more to learn...

12th May 2005, 12:33 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Unfortunately, I can't find my books (so I have to apologize for not oftering references _yet_), so I have to rely on memory and Britannica: Salahadin (himself a kurd) was from the family of atabegs - Turk-seljuk warlords, who were supposedly "protecting" Baghdad Caliphat. With time this family and its seljuk's was becoming more and more powerful. In 1169 Salahadin marched into Cairo, slaughtered around 40,000 black mamluks (Nubians etc.), their families, disbanded other parts of Cairo garrison and replaced it with his seljuks. Concerning Salahadin's "white" mamluks he was the first one to introduce them into Egypt. Till that time only seljuks used to purchase slave boys from Caucasus and Kipchak territories (eventually stretching from Khorezm to Hungary), and put them into service as "guard" units. With Salahadin this practise was greatly expanded, mostly through buying kipchaks from Cuman Kipchak regions (Modern Crimea and Ukraine) and northern caucasus kipchaks. Concerning the languages he spoke - it's certain he did speak arabic, I did not see the movie, but it seems natural for him to use arabic as a diplomatic language. Now concerning languages that were used by mamluks among themselves in general it was always their own language - turks spoke turkish dialects (kipchak), mongols I think spoke kipchak too, georgians spoke kartli, adighas- adighe, other caucasians (armenians, chechens etc.) spoke usually adighe or kartli, depending on which one was dominant. Concerning that only kipchaks and circassians were mamluks - Ali-Bey, Mehmed Beg and most of post XVII century mamluks were georgians (megrel tribe, western georgia), some of prominent mamluk leaders before were Mongol or Seljuk. It's important that in arabic literature word "cherkes" can mean anything from around Caucasus. It's interesting that mamluks were so isolated in their national community that very often they did not develop any islamic identity (great example is Rustam's memoirs and to some extent famous correspendence of XIX century mamluks with russian tzar and georgian kings). Last edited by Rivkin; 12th May 2005 at 12:46 AM.

11th May 2005, 10:12 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Fifty more minutes ?! Oboy ! < Rubs hands even harder> I will bet you dollars to donuts that the first DVD of this film released will not be the extended version . I have been fooled a couple of times by this Hollywood distribution trick .

11th May 2005, 10:50 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	You know you spoke of the feeling you got at Saladin's tomb . Although I have never been to the Middle East . I have felt that same thing at St. Basil's in Moscow for some reason . Gettysburg battlefield is like walking into a Van de Graff generator . Even though we were not there when history was made the energy still lingers ,for me, in a palpable way .

12th May 2005, 06:16 AM	#5
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Empu Gandreng tempering (nyepuhan) with his lips on the red hot blade for the infamous keris of Ken Aroek. Sorry guys, can't show you Empu Nyi sombro doing nyepuhan with her lips. I'll get banned from this forum! STOP! STOP! Can someone please tell this Malay prince that a keris is NOT a stabbing weapon but a holy talisman? These are screenshots of some of the best Malay movies produced in Singapore in the 1960s. You can see the keris in its (Malay) cultural context. Check out others at www.kampungnet.com.sg More to come...

12th May 2005, 11:51 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks for the pics Rahman. Interesting the completely wrong (to my understanding at least) grip and thrust used in the second pic. Feel free to send me that pic of empu Sombro in a private e-mail.

12th May 2005, 02:29 PM	#7
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	No, there was no pic... just pulling your 'leg' That grip in the second pic is not unusual, but you can also see the normal grip in other pics in our gallery. The interesting thing is, I've been playing with the Jogja and Solo keris and I can easily pivot the hilt from a normal to a reverse grip as in the photo. But I can never do that with a Malay hilt. Guess there's still a lot more to learn...