Tulwar Hilt Types

Jens Nordlunde · 4th September 2009, 04:33 PM

In Memorials of the Jaypore Exhibition 1883, Hendley in vol. II, plate LVIII shows three hilts. From left to right, Gujarat, Jaypore and Gujarat. A hilt like the last one is also shown on plate LVII, but this one has a double hand guard, to protect the fingers and the hand.

Often the old authors would use the armoury labels when they described a weapon, and if a weapon was wrongly labelled they did not always notice it, so later authors who used the books, as a source would repeat the mistake, and sometimes the mistake would be accepted, as it had been repeated many times. In this case however, I think it is safe to accept Hendley’s statement as the hilts were sent to the exhibition, and at that time they were newly made.

Jim McDougall · 4th September 2009, 04:39 PM

Jens,
We crossed posts!!
I had forgotten that magnificent reference, Hendley!!! Thank you for sharing the perfect illustration of the note on attribution of examples, and the great photo.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 4th September 2009, 09:51 PM

I think it is a good thread, and I am wondering why more dealers do not participate, as they should be ineterested in this kind of discussion. There are a lot of dealers on this forum, so why do they not come forward and give their version?

Gavin Nugent · 4th September 2009, 11:29 PM

Fair call Jens.

Like weapons from many times and cultures, an exercise in absolute correct identification of Indian hilts is an exact science and one I am sure many of us all learn a little about each day, I know I do.

Learned colectors such as yourself, Jim and others from Mother England, I am sure would be better versed on the subject than most due to Englands long standing interest/history with India.

My Niche and passion is Chinese and this is where most of my spare time is directed, this Indian hilt ID is a steep leaning curve and something I personnaly have not commited to memory.
I rely on friends, generous people within this forum and reference books from some of the great authors throughout time and use these when needed and thus learn in the process...a good chance to learn further soon as three are on their way to me and I can add these hilts to the topic at hand.

From conversations I have had over time with various Sikhs (not always an absolute authority), they have always indicated sword hilts and blade shapes are based on religion so I would assume that one must consider Indian religions and the placement of these ethic groups devoted to certain worship throughout India to better gleam an idea of proper identification.

It is a very good thread that is going here and working through the processes to find if there is an exact science is what is needed but as noted above, one must also understand trade centres that made hilts and where they were traded to.
I know I'd love to pinpoint with a degree of exactness, the Sosun Patta I have in my personal collection so I will be reading and researching further when time permits and share these observations when they come to hand.

As I noted above, reference books are invaluable, if you can afford them, grab them, seek them out and ask fellow collectors for titles, we can't all know everything, but as a collective, such as this forum, so much more can be revealed as many heads are looking in many directions.

I hope these comments open up some further discussion too.

Regards

Gav

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2009, 01:12 AM

Fantastic post Gav!!!!
Jens, here is the one exception I know of to most dealers, who typically avoid involvement in discussions concerning the scholarly discussion of research on weapons.
Thank you Gav for these outstanding observations, which truly recognize the inherent complexities in organized study of these tulwars, as well as the well placed perspective you always add in these discussions.

All very best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 5th September 2009, 05:08 PM

Gav,

Too much knowledge about the Indian weapons have gone lost over the centuries, either be course it was not written down, or maybe be course it was burned during one of the many fires after the battles, so what we do, is trying to put the few pieces we have/can find together to get a picture of how it was. On the literature I would say, if you have less books on the subject than you have weapons, you have too many weapons – or perhaps, too few books.

I would be very surprised if studying the Indian weapons could be turned into an exact science, as there are so many aspects involved. Trade, looting, armouries being emptied by the English Raj, some weapons sold while others were sent to the iron mills, the emptying of armouries late 19th century by dealers, and early 20th century, also by dealers – who, for different reasons did not tell from which armouries the weapons came, so a lot of evidence has been destroyed along the way, or the truth not told, and even to day you can find weapons on the market, which recently have left the armoury of a Maharaja, unofficially. Sometimes specific markings are removed to destroy evidence of from which armoury the weapon came.

So, with time and patience it is sometimes possible to pinpoint a weapon, or maybe a hilt – but it takes a lot of time and a lot of reading.

4th September 2009, 04:33 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Memorials of the Jaypore Exhibition 1883, Hendley in vol. II, plate LVIII shows three hilts. From left to right, Gujarat, Jaypore and Gujarat. A hilt like the last one is also shown on plate LVII, but this one has a double hand guard, to protect the fingers and the hand. Often the old authors would use the armoury labels when they described a weapon, and if a weapon was wrongly labelled they did not always notice it, so later authors who used the books, as a source would repeat the mistake, and sometimes the mistake would be accepted, as it had been repeated many times. In this case however, I think it is safe to accept Hendley’s statement as the hilts were sent to the exhibition, and at that time they were newly made. Attached Images

4th September 2009, 11:29 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Fair call Fair call Jens. Like weapons from many times and cultures, an exercise in absolute correct identification of Indian hilts is an exact science and one I am sure many of us all learn a little about each day, I know I do. Learned colectors such as yourself, Jim and others from Mother England, I am sure would be better versed on the subject than most due to Englands long standing interest/history with India. My Niche and passion is Chinese and this is where most of my spare time is directed, this Indian hilt ID is a steep leaning curve and something I personnaly have not commited to memory. I rely on friends, generous people within this forum and reference books from some of the great authors throughout time and use these when needed and thus learn in the process...a good chance to learn further soon as three are on their way to me and I can add these hilts to the topic at hand. From conversations I have had over time with various Sikhs (not always an absolute authority), they have always indicated sword hilts and blade shapes are based on religion so I would assume that one must consider Indian religions and the placement of these ethic groups devoted to certain worship throughout India to better gleam an idea of proper identification. It is a very good thread that is going here and working through the processes to find if there is an exact science is what is needed but as noted above, one must also understand trade centres that made hilts and where they were traded to. I know I'd love to pinpoint with a degree of exactness, the Sosun Patta I have in my personal collection so I will be reading and researching further when time permits and share these observations when they come to hand. As I noted above, reference books are invaluable, if you can afford them, grab them, seek them out and ask fellow collectors for titles, we can't all know everything, but as a collective, such as this forum, so much more can be revealed as many heads are looking in many directions. I hope these comments open up some further discussion too. Regards Gav Last edited by freebooter; 5th September 2009 at 03:13 AM.

4th September 2009, 04:39 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Jens, We crossed posts!! I had forgotten that magnificent reference, Hendley!!! Thank you for sharing the perfect illustration of the note on attribution of examples, and the great photo. All the best, Jim

4th September 2009, 09:51 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think it is a good thread, and I am wondering why more dealers do not participate, as they should be ineterested in this kind of discussion. There are a lot of dealers on this forum, so why do they not come forward and give their version?

5th September 2009, 01:12 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Fantastic post Gav!!!! Jens, here is the one exception I know of to most dealers, who typically avoid involvement in discussions concerning the scholarly discussion of research on weapons. Thank you Gav for these outstanding observations, which truly recognize the inherent complexities in organized study of these tulwars, as well as the well placed perspective you always add in these discussions. All very best regards, Jim

5th September 2009, 05:08 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gav, Too much knowledge about the Indian weapons have gone lost over the centuries, either be course it was not written down, or maybe be course it was burned during one of the many fires after the battles, so what we do, is trying to put the few pieces we have/can find together to get a picture of how it was. On the literature I would say, if you have less books on the subject than you have weapons, you have too many weapons – or perhaps, too few books. I would be very surprised if studying the Indian weapons could be turned into an exact science, as there are so many aspects involved. Trade, looting, armouries being emptied by the English Raj, some weapons sold while others were sent to the iron mills, the emptying of armouries late 19th century by dealers, and early 20th century, also by dealers – who, for different reasons did not tell from which armouries the weapons came, so a lot of evidence has been destroyed along the way, or the truth not told, and even to day you can find weapons on the market, which recently have left the armoury of a Maharaja, unofficially. Sometimes specific markings are removed to destroy evidence of from which armoury the weapon came. So, with time and patience it is sometimes possible to pinpoint a weapon, or maybe a hilt – but it takes a lot of time and a lot of reading.