Interesting Lumad sword

Federico · 11th May 2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philkid

Hi guys, glad you liked the "lumad" sword I have posted on ebay. Thanks for the clarification. I really thought it was Moro because I bought it from a Maranao.

Ive seen a couple other swords similar to this one, which were bought from Maranao, so you arent the only person who has encountered this phenomena. I wonder why a lumad sword would first be sold to a Maranao middleman and then to a Christian Filipino. Apparantly must be a common practice.

Bill · 11th May 2005, 05:48 PM

TheMorningStar, what is your definition of a Sundang, this sword form, or a sword made for fighting? Anyone care to put a age bracket for this form? The hilt form is not that far from Maranao type punals & gunongs, & the metal stampings would be consistant with Maranao, but also seem to fall short of the detail, somewhat generic.

Ian · 11th May 2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Ive seen a couple other swords similar to this one, which were bought from Maranao, so you arent the only person who has encountered this phenomena. I wonder why a lumad sword would first be sold to a Maranao middleman and then to a Christian Filipino. Apparantly must be a common practice.

Federico:

The answer is simply based on how the local market works. Over the years, the market has been much stronger for Moro weapons than Lumad weapons. Those who bring weapons to the dealers in Davao City and other "disposal" points have been Muslims dealing in Moro weapons. Now, if I have a Lumad sword and want to get a good deal, but have no good contacts to sell it, then I'll sell it to the guy who has those connections (or maybe he takes it on commission). So the Moro seller becomes an agent for other types of swords, which suits his purpose also when the supply of Moro weapons starts to dry up.

Win-win situation all round.

I have sat in antique shops in Manila and watched Muslims from Mindanao come by and try to sell a variety of wares from Mindanao to the Manila dealers. Often included in their offerings are T'boli, Bagobo and Kaolu items. The seller knows what he has, and if confronted with a direct statement, such as, "That's a Bagobo knife," will readily acknowledge the true origin of the piece. Otherwise he will try to lump them all as "Moro" because he will get a better price that way. Caveat emptor!

Federico · 11th May 2005, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Federico:

The answer is simply based on how the local market works. Over the years, the market has been much stronger for Moro weapons than Lumad weapons. Those who bring weapons to the dealers in Davao City and other "disposal" points have been Muslims dealing in Moro weapons. Now, if I have a Lumad sword and want to get a good deal, but have no good contacts to sell it, then I'll sell it to the guy who has those connections (or maybe he takes it on commission). So the Moro seller becomes an agent for other types of swords, which suits his purpose also when the supply of Moro weapons starts to dry up.

Win-win situation all round.

I have sat in antique shops in Manila and watched Muslims from Mindanao come by and try to sell a variety of wares from Mindanao to the Manila dealers. Often included in their offerings are T'boli, Bagobo and Kaolu items. The seller knows what he has, and if confronted with a direct statement, such as, "That's a Bagobo knife," will readily acknowledge the true origin of the piece. Otherwise he will try to lump them all as "Moro" because he will get a better price that way. Caveat emptor!

Thanks for the details, one of these days Im gonna have to make it to Moroland, sounds like a fascinating market.

Conogre · 11th May 2005, 10:18 PM

The disemination of knowledge often increases both understanding and appreciation for previously little known weapons, and as the information becomes more wide spread the "value" often increases accordingly.
I've been lucky in the past by taking chances on pieces that appeared to have age and be genuine while having absolutely no actual knowledge on what I was buying/bidding on at the time while getting burned very infrequently.....my Bagobo sword, for instance, was purchased when they were still generally thought to be "recently manufactured replicas of Moro pieces" for $35.00.
Ian, in particular, has probably contributed as much or more information about Lumad swords and knives than anyone I can think of, and I for one have expressed my personal gratitude to him for sharing his wealth of information, even though it probably has had an inflationary unintended result, but even that is a double edged sword (no pun intended)
While we may carp occasionally about the now high prices, I can't, in all honesty, begrudge the people who made, owned and used these magnificent pieces sharing in their true worth as opposed to getting robbed as happened so often in the past, with only dealers making any profit.
Mike

zamboanga · 12th May 2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Ive seen a couple other swords similar to this one, which were bought from Maranao, so you arent the only person who has encountered this phenomena. I wonder why a lumad sword would first be sold to a Maranao middleman and then to a Christian Filipino. Apparantly must be a common practice.

i think there is a bit of chance that the lumad sword mentioned here is maranao made. but that's just my opinion. i used to have a maranao made jian and pira.

by the way, the tagacaolos are said to be a branch of the mandayas.

mmontoro · 12th May 2005, 01:45 PM

That's a very nice shield, Mike.

Ian · 12th May 2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

i think there is a bit of chance that the lumad sword mentioned here is maranao made. but that's just my opinion. i used to have a maranao made jian and pira.

by the way, the tagacaolos are said to be a branch of the mandayas.

Good point Z.

The one on eBay appears to be more recently made, or perhaps assembled, than the example for which I show pictures above. Coins on the one above date to the 1930s -- which doesn't necessarily mean much, but suggests pre-WWII manufacture and the overall condition would tend to confirm that age.

Maranao swords and knives made in the last 50 years or so have included "non-traditional" styles, perhaps based on other local weapons. Sale to the tourist trade may explain part of this trend.

I have seen other sabers coming from the Maranao dating to the second half of the 20th C. Many of these had Eastern-style knuckle guards and pointed scabbards with silver tips. I'm not sure what style of sword they were emulating.

Battara · 12th May 2005, 05:49 PM

It seems that since the Morolands have been cut off a little due to the violence, the flood of newly made Moro stuff has turned into a trickle. This plus the interest in Moro seems to have dried up the market and (as mentioned already on the forum) the prices for lumad has been rising. Katipunan is beginning to do the same thing and I expect soon Igorot will also. My question is when will the market stabilize (or fall)?

Rick · 12th May 2005, 06:46 PM

Generally speaking the market may stabilize but it's very doubtful it will fall .
Arms Collectors are a niche market but a very old one , unlike beanie babies the interest never seems to flag .
As the antique swords disappear into personal collections the prices for the remaining pieces will most likely rise .
Consider mediaeval swords , how many among us could afford to collect them these days ?
The further and faster we move into the future , the more we will attempt to cling to the past .
Imagine what a Desert Eagle 50cal pistol will bring when there are no more projectile weapons .

Just my opinion , but I know that my collection of arms has outperformed the Stock Market by a substantial margin in the last 5 years .

How about yours ?

zamboanga · 13th May 2005, 10:03 AM

In the early 1900s when Americans came to Mindanao to grab its rich natural resources, a Tagacaolo leader took it upon himself to retaliate the foreigners.

In 1906, this lumad leader assassinated the American governor for Davao. What came next is never reported in Philippine history - the americans took a huwes de kutsilyo or scorched earth policy against the tagacaolos. no one was spared in the massacre - men, women, children, even animals. The massacre only stopped when the assassin himself was killed.

Ian · 13th May 2005, 12:25 PM

Z:

Great piece of history but not unique in the annals of US occupation of the Philippnes. I believe something similar happened in Samar after a US garrison was wiped out by local insurgents.

Do you have a good reference that describes the assassination of the US Governor of Davao and the subsequent massacre?

Ian.

11th May 2005, 10:18 PM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	The disemination of knowledge often increases both understanding and appreciation for previously little known weapons, and as the information becomes more wide spread the "value" often increases accordingly. I've been lucky in the past by taking chances on pieces that appeared to have age and be genuine while having absolutely no actual knowledge on what I was buying/bidding on at the time while getting burned very infrequently.....my Bagobo sword, for instance, was purchased when they were still generally thought to be "recently manufactured replicas of Moro pieces" for $35.00. Ian, in particular, has probably contributed as much or more information about Lumad swords and knives than anyone I can think of, and I for one have expressed my personal gratitude to him for sharing his wealth of information, even though it probably has had an inflationary unintended result, but even that is a double edged sword (no pun intended) While we may carp occasionally about the now high prices, I can't, in all honesty, begrudge the people who made, owned and used these magnificent pieces sharing in their true worth as opposed to getting robbed as happened so often in the past, with only dealers making any profit. Mike Attached Images

12th May 2005, 06:46 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,366	With Antiques ? Generally speaking the market may stabilize but it's very doubtful it will fall . Arms Collectors are a niche market but a very old one , unlike beanie babies the interest never seems to flag . As the antique swords disappear into personal collections the prices for the remaining pieces will most likely rise . Consider mediaeval swords , how many among us could afford to collect them these days ? The further and faster we move into the future , the more we will attempt to cling to the past . Imagine what a Desert Eagle 50cal pistol will bring when there are no more projectile weapons . Just my opinion , but I know that my collection of arms has outperformed the Stock Market by a substantial margin in the last 5 years . How about yours ?

13th May 2005, 10:03 AM	#11
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Tagacaolo's place in history In the early 1900s when Americans came to Mindanao to grab its rich natural resources, a Tagacaolo leader took it upon himself to retaliate the foreigners. In 1906, this lumad leader assassinated the American governor for Davao. What came next is never reported in Philippine history - the americans took a huwes de kutsilyo or scorched earth policy against the tagacaolos. no one was spared in the massacre - men, women, children, even animals. The massacre only stopped when the assassin himself was killed.

11th May 2005, 05:48 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	TheMorningStar, what is your definition of a Sundang, this sword form, or a sword made for fighting? Anyone care to put a age bracket for this form? The hilt form is not that far from Maranao type punals & gunongs, & the metal stampings would be consistant with Maranao, but also seem to fall short of the detail, somewhat generic.

12th May 2005, 01:45 PM	#7
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	That's a very nice shield, Mike.

12th May 2005, 05:49 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,320	It seems that since the Morolands have been cut off a little due to the violence, the flood of newly made Moro stuff has turned into a trickle. This plus the interest in Moro seems to have dried up the market and (as mentioned already on the forum) the prices for lumad has been rising. Katipunan is beginning to do the same thing and I expect soon Igorot will also. My question is when will the market stabilize (or fall)?

13th May 2005, 12:25 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,469	Z: Great piece of history but not unique in the annals of US occupation of the Philippnes. I believe something similar happened in Samar after a US garrison was wiped out by local insurgents. Do you have a good reference that describes the assassination of the US Governor of Davao and the subsequent massacre? Ian.