On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc.

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I absolutely agree with Fearn, that the use of induced rage or intense combativeness with the use of certain drugs via botanicals is in many cases less likely, and that often temporal instigation could bring an individual to points of frenzy and near hysteria.
[...]
The berserks, and I think warriors of these associated regions and times, were not necessarily inherently psychotic, but more attuned to violence and a certain disassociation with consequences of terrible carnage. This, along with vehement beliefs in supernatural dogma, enabled them to use self focused anxiety, induced rage and adrenalin into a frenzied state that exceeded the imaginations of the average person in trying to understand.

Very good point. The mindset of a person can be enough to make them "berserk" let alone drug-induced state.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In many cases recorded, probably many times over unknown, combatants were not even aware of terrible wounds they had received, and were literally still fighting when they should have been either down or even dead.

That still happens today where a victim will be fighting off his assailant, or a cop fighting with a criminal... and thanks to adrenaline and focus, bullets and deep knife wounds are sometimes disregarded by the wounded as they keep on fighting. Many knife-attack victims are in a hand to hand fight only to realize they have been cut badly by a surprise-knife... but sometimes they had even killed their opponent before finding out that they have knife-wounds...

They say there is such a thing as a "10 second rule"... and even if mortally wounded, he can probably still kill you in that 10 seconds when he is enraged and pumping pull of adrenaline.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In the Sudan, the mistermed 'dervish' warriors would tightly wrap themselves with material to sustain them even beyond potentially fatal wounds from gunfire, so they would be able to carry further into point of contact, despite numerous bullets in them. While this effort certainly might have given them some potential endurance, it was more likely the religiously charged drive that projected them so intensely. Thier faith would certainly have precluded any use of any sort of intoxication to produce this effect.

Reminds me of the Moro juramentado...

[aiontay]

At the risk of throwing another wrinkle in this discussion, maybe in addition to ethnography we might want to add gender? We've got the Amazon priestess of the Philippines, and one of the versions of the origins of the balisong knife is that it is a woman's weapon, or one that women frequently used. Given that women's daily chores in many traditional cultures would be very blade dependent, maybe the focus on berserkers might obscure lots of other knives, improvised and otherwise used by women. In a lot of American Indian tribes knives were literally part of a woman's everyday dress, and they weren't just for chores. They were also carried for defense.

And how about knives made of river cane? They were extremely common in the SE USA. I've tried to make them and have never been successful. Does anyone have any information on how it was done?

[migueldiaz]

Some more info re extreme mental stress experienced by warriors during battle, taken from this Cannae battle article, using works by Marshall and Keegan for reference --

The warriors' deep dark secrets -- '[D]uring combat the soldier may become so gripped by fear that most of his thought is directed toward escape. But if he serving among men whom he has known for a long period or whose judgment of him counts for any reason, he still will strive to hide his terror from them ... The majority are unwilling to take extraordinary risks and do not aspire to a hero's role, but they are equally unwilling that they should be considered the least worthy among those present [SLA Marshall, 1947, p. 149]'

Pelters' peer pressure -- After the battle lines would have been drawn, skirmishers will try to disrupt the enemy's formation by getting near them to launch volleys of missiles. 'Many frightened troops [i.e., skirmishers] would have used their weapon in these circumstances out of a desire not to appear weak in front of their friends [the most important reason why men fight in battle, per Marshall (1947) and John Keegan (1976)] ... a large proportion of these would have fired blindly, without even attempting to aim.'

Not much change after 2,000 years -- In comparison, Marshall (1947) in his study of the American infantry's performance in WW2 observed that on average, 'no more than 15% of men ever used their weapon in any given engagement. This figure rose to 25% in the most aggressive companies when under extreme pressure ... [in the Korean War] the rate of fire [rose] to over 50%. However, no more than 20% of troops aimed their weapons.' Furthermore, 'Marshall's research (1947, pp. 48-9) indicated many troops will simply not use their weapons unless told to do so ....'

They need more peyote and/or ayahuasca!

[fearn]

Hi Migueldiaz,

I'm not sure that any hallucinogens such as ayahuasca or peyote are ever used in battle, mostly because the normal side effects (projectile vomiting and defecation) along with the visions, make it really hard for anyone to fight under the influence of either of these drugs. Peyote and ayahuasca are also generally taken in a strongly spiritual context, not on the battlefield.

In regard to peyote and warfare, the only question I'm interested in is whether the Native American Church has an active program to reintegrate returning soldiers back into their civilian communities, and whether peyote plays a part in that program. Many native people have rituals and such to help people "come down" from fighting and re-enter their communities. The one I know about is the Navajo "Enemy Way," but I'm sure there are others. It's something the US Army is finally learning to do, and given the harm caused by untreated PTSD, I think it's a good thing.

The drugs I know that have been used in combat include alcohol (to lower inhibitions, it also lowers judgement and accuracy, as we all know), meth, cocaine, and heroin, and that's mostly from vietnam and current third-world conflicts. The fact that some warlords use these drugs on child soldiers is (to me) horrifying.

Obviously, we're getting off the general topic of ethnographic weapons here, unless someone's going to bring out one of those Japanese opium pipe/clubs. Still, many of the weapons we collect were made for war, and this is part of their environment.

I think this thread is setting some sort of record for marginal yet unkillable topicality. What's next?

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Very well stated Fearn and Miguel! I am very much inclined to agree that spiritual psychotropics such as peyote would not have been used in battle, nor indeed any hallucinogenics as the detrimental effects in reduction of awareness would have likely been fatal. As noted, Viet Nam did see varying degrees of drug use, mostly used in 'down' time in disassociation, however sometimes in combat situations, and unfortunately we can never know how much loss of life may have occurred in these tragic circumstances, perhaps as a result.

While the field of esoteric and philosophical topics is agreeably expanded to the farthest boundaries of connection to weaponry, again, we are considering man himself as a weapon and better understanding this can help in the little discussed topic of the psychological applications to weapons themselves.

It is a good thing to know that at last the military is beginning to understand the tremendously debilitatiing effects that can cause soldiers terrible difficulty in reassimilating into civilian life. I have seen these very effects and there is little can can be said to accurately describe these often very deep psychological wounds, which defy recognition outwardly, thus elude attempts in trying to heal them.

All best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Fearn, Jim, thanks for expanding and deepening the discussion further!

Given the hypothesis that a man's primary weapon is his mental faculty, then it should follow that during combat his brain will experience the greatest wear-and-tear.

Whereas a weapon can be dispensed with after it gets badly beaten up, unfortunately the soldier and everybody else is stuck with his own brain.

The good news is that military institutions and the general public are now beginning to realize how important it is for them to be sensitive and supportive of PTSD cases.

Like in the UK, we read that finally, hundreds of WW1 soldiers shot for 'cowardice' are to be pardoned. That was an old article, so by this time they may have already been all pardoned.

And we can also recall that famous incident wherein Patton hit a soldier who apparently was suffering from PTSD ...

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by aiontay

At the risk of throwing another wrinkle in this discussion, maybe in addition to ethnography we might want to add gender? xxx In a lot of American Indian tribes knives were literally part of a woman's everyday dress, and they weren't just for chores. They were also carried for defense.

What I'll relate below is every bit true, and some people will find this amusing, for sure.

Our mother said that during her teen years (1950s), it was pretty ordinary for women (in the Philippines) to carry in their purse a sewing needle or pin, as an improvised 'weapon'.

The situation being prepared for is this -- in public gatherings or queues in a theater for instance, an occasional pervert (or horny teen) makes use of the tightly packed crowd as an excuse to 'accidentally' touch or bump maidens. And so that pin or needle comes in handy, both as a deterrent and as an actual ethnographic weapon if needed.

They must have read about the porcupine when they were young!

[fearn]

Porcupine, or stingray?

F

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by fearn

Porcupine, or stingray?

Yes, that's it!

On the idea of the brain as the main weapon, I've just finished leafing through a Tausug-English Dictionary (1994, Summer Institute of Linguistics) --

UTUK: noun. brain

UTAK: noun. bolo

UTUD: verb. cut off a part of something

In the Tagalog (Luzon) dialect, 'utak' means brain.

So I was thinking, maybe it's not all coincidence -- perhaps the Tausugs' forefathers of long long time ago (like other cultures elsewhere) had realized that the mind is the first and foremost weapon ...

PS - I'll be opening another thread, on Tausug terms for blades, combat, etc. There's one term there for a particular never-heard-before sword (at least to me) that defies present classification. Maybe with everybody's 'utuk' and 'utak' collaborating, we can figure out that mystery blade.