On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc.

[Jim McDougall]

This thread, which began with a sort of whimsical, yet interesting topic, has evolved into somewhat the pinnacle of off topic digression ...but I confess to having followed it with ever increasing fascination.
I am constantly amazed at the incredible core of knowledge on such a vast array of fields here, many of course not directly related to weapons.

One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related.

One of my favorite areas in examining arms has always been markings and symbolism, and understanding these often leads down incredibly esoteric and even occult paths. This is especially the case in American Indian culture as well as Spanish colonial situations, where in many cases these have melded together.

I could not resist following the Castaneda topic, which led me to the American Indian religions that follow the use of peyote and some of the other hallucinogenics, and its development from prehistoric times in America's southwest and northern Mexico. This leads to Meso American cultures, including the Aztecs and Olmecs, and the influences that evolved into the American Indian and Mexican cultures as well as Spanish, which in many cases included....weaponry.

Bruno Thomas and Ortwin Gamber in thier 'Harnitschstudian' (Studies in Armour) from 1937-1955, convincingly explained that "...rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

The study of art of course includes religion and all material culture, including that of folk religion, which as discusses, may often include botanicals that in turn include hallucinogens.

Just my thoughts, and thanks for the intriguing discussion....really enjoyed the adventure and added some great dimension to my present studies in Spanish colonial and American southwest study.

Best regards,
Jim

[aiontay]

The last practicing Kiowa horn doctor (a form of blood letting) uses buffalo horns handed down through her family and for cutting instruments, slivers of glass from broken brown (they have to be brown) booze bottles instead of splinters of buffalo bones like they used to. I use broken glass to scrape down bow staves, and brown glass is harder and sharper based on my admittedly subjective experience.

What about the use of gar's teeth for scratching at the SE ceremonial grounds? Would that count as an improvised "knife"?

As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

[Montino Bourbon]

Weapons are often loaded with shamanic power, and even so-called straightforward religious energy. The aspiring knight stayed up all night praying over his weapons, and there are lots of instances of various kinds of power in weapons. Keris is just one example.

Shaka Zulu totally changed South African combat methods from basically ritualistic spear throwing from a distance to a very methodical and effective military science. The long throwing spear was discarded for the short stabbing assegai, and the first of these, which he commissioned (Supposedly after a vision) was tempered with various animal entrails by his ally, the medicine woman Isangoma.

Castaneda's teacher talked about leaving weapons where spirits could touch them and empower them.

The ordinary and extraordinary realities exist at the same time and in the same place. And weapons are full of that kind of energy. In fact, I would say that weapons are one of the primary sources and repositories of shamanic energy.

[Jim McDougall]

Very nicely done guys!!! Talk about bringin it around.......beautiful.

Aiontay, its always great to learn more on the true American Indian perspective, and Montino, well placed notes on the shamanic connections to weapons.

All the very best,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related.

Thanks Jim, and all of us couldn't agree more of course

When I started the serious study of Phil. ethnic weapons, I thought I would just be dealing with blades. Now I see myself (reluctantly) studying the weaving patterns for instance of the many Phil. ethnic groups.

It's becoming one heck of a journey, but I never regretted it and I'm definitely enjoying the ride.

Originally Posted by aiontay

... As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

Thanks for the info aiontay on the improvised knife and blood-letting. That's quite interesting!

It's also interesting to think that our peoples may be related, if certain theories of anthropologists are to be believed.

By that I meant the hypothesis that from Asia, a group of people crossed the land bridge during the Ice Age into Alaska. Or perhaps your people would have a totally different belief, in which case it will also be interesting to know about it. Thanks in advance!

By the way, can you kindly please elaborate please on the last sentence of your post?

On another matter, on the attempt to blend the supernatural with the physical, I'd like to repeat this account I first quoted here, describing an Igorot "amazon priestess" in action in the battlefield:

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

[aiontay]

My Kiowa ancestors came out from underground through a hollow log as ants. A pregnant woman got caught and that is why there aren't too many of us. On my Chickasaw side, we came from the west and ended up in the SE USA, before the Andrew Jackson repaid our help in fighting the Brits with him at the Battle of New Orleans by removing us to Oklahoma. For a rather interesting story regarding the Chickasaw migration legend, which was a common one in the SE, read Du Pratz's story of a Yazoo Indian who basically tries to find out if the story is true. Du Pratz was a French settler in Louisiana in the early 18th century, and his book is available online.

Which leads us to an Asian connection. Over here we say it was actually the other way around; you guys came from here (just kidding), and Du Pratz story indicates there might be a connection. My Kachin friends assert that their migrations legends lead them to believe that American Indians are their brothers. Interestingly enough, the linguist Sapir posited a link between the Tibeto-Burman languages and the Dine languages (Apache, Navajo, and tribes in Alaska and Canada). As for a link to the Philippines, the only link I can think of is that I've studied Pekiti Tirsia for over 20 years. Sorry, that's the best I can do. Oh, I like chocolate meat, which is a very Kiowa style dish.

As for my last sentence, their is a Kiowa Christian hymn "Son of God, the Spirit of Joy He Is" or that's how it is translated into English. It is my favorite hymn. A number of years ago a Kiowa man's wife died. One day not long after her death he was walking along a country road and passed a herd of sheep, animals not native to the Americas. As he passed by the herd, he realized they were singing a hymn. That is where that song comes from, sheep. As my Yuchi friend said when I told him that story, "See their own animals don't speak English!"

[fearn]

Originally Posted by aiontay

My Kiowa ancestors came out from underground through a hollow log as ants. A pregnant woman got caught and that is why there aren't too many of us. On my Chickasaw side, we came from the west and ended up in the SE USA, before the Andrew Jackson repaid our help in fighting the Brits with him at the Battle of New Orleans by removing us to Oklahoma. For a rather interesting story regarding the Chickasaw migration legend, which was a common one in the SE, read Du Pratz's story of a Yazoo Indian who basically tries to find out if the story is true. Du Pratz was a French settler in Louisiana in the early 18th century, and his book is available online.

Which leads us to an Asian connection. Over here we say it was actually the other way around; you guys came from here (just kidding), and Du Pratz story indicates there might be a connection. My Kachin friends assert that their migrations legends lead them to believe that American Indians are their brothers. Interestingly enough, the linguist Sapir posited a link between the Tibeto-Burman languages and the Dine languages (Apache, Navajo, and tribes in Alaska and Canada). As for a link to the Philippines, the only link I can think of is that I've studied Pekiti Tirsia for over 20 years. Sorry, that's the best I can do. Oh, I like chocolate meat, which is a very Kiowa style dish.

As for my last sentence, their is a Kiowa Christian hymn "Son of God, the Spirit of Joy He Is" or that's how it is translated into English. It is my favorite hymn. A number of years ago a Kiowa man's wife died. One day not long after her death he was walking along a country road and passed a herd of sheep, animals not native to the Americas. As he passed by the herd, he realized they were singing a hymn. That is where that song comes from, sheep. As my Yuchi friend said when I told him that story, "See their own animals don't speak English!"

Hi Aiontay,

You don't think that sheep would speak to Judean shepherds as well?

Seriously, though, I wonder if the sheep were humming, rather than speaking. People get their melodies from all over the place, and for all I know (and feel free to correct me), the person who wrote that Kiowa hymn was a shepherd who picked up his inspiration from the field.

Mozart did the same thing. He had a pet starling of whom he was quite fond. Starlings are mimics that can learn words, but Mozart put starling-like musical phrasings into at least one of his pieces.

Best,

F

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Which leads us to an Asian connection. Over here we say it was actually the other way around; you guys came from here (just kidding), and Du Pratz story indicates there might be a connection. My Kachin friends assert that their migrations legends lead them to believe that American Indians are their brothers. Interestingly enough, the linguist Sapir posited a link between the Tibeto-Burman languages and the Dine languages (Apache, Navajo, and tribes in Alaska and Canada). As for a link to the Philippines, the only link I can think of is that I've studied Pekiti Tirsia for over 20 years. Sorry, that's the best I can do. Oh, I like chocolate meat, which is a very Kiowa style dish.

Cool!

Hey, I don't mind if we from Asia came from over there, via that Bering land bridge which is now Bering Strait.

I should probably mention that to the immigration officer the next time I visit the US. I'd like to find out what kind of conversation that will trigger

Joking aside, the study of languages is indeed heaven-sent with regard to tracing the migration paths of peoples, and as regards finding out who is really related to whom.

With the rise of high-speed computing in the 1970s, linguists were able to easily categorize gazillions of words, thereby providing additional leads in areas where archeology runs out of steam.

The Philippines' own language tree is below (from one of WH Scott's books).

For instance, it is one of the evidences being cited to prove that the dominant Taosugs of the Sulu sultanate actually came from the other side of Mindanao (the Agusan-Surigao area).

Now what I'm really interested in is a Phil. language tree with the time dimension, just like what was done (below) for the English language tree.

PS - Thanks for the reply-comments on the other points as well.

[KuKulzA28]

aiontay, that is fascinating. My family has lost touch with almost all of their traditional Chinese/Taiwanese beliefs and world-views. Maybe that's a good thing... maybe it isn't at all. The last 300 years of sino-history has been a lot of cultural decay...

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thanks Jim, and all of us couldn't agree more of course

When I started the serious study of Phil. ethnic weapons, I thought I would just be dealing with blades. Now I see myself (reluctantly) studying the weaving patterns for instance of the many Phil. ethnic groups.

I too have found that happening. My quest to learn more about the Southern Chinese way of fighting, as well as Taiwanese aborigines has led me to brush up on my Mandarin and also try to relearn Min-nan/Taiwanese! I've found myself looking at Chinese clothing styles from Fujian, their boats, etc. I have also been listening to Taiwanese aboriginal songs and folktales, as well as their weaving and tribal structures... because a weapon is an artifact of survival in a society, and thus will be imbued and crafted with the hues and beliefs of that culture. Unfortunately, few people I know share the same enthusiasm for Taiwanese history and weaponry, but hey, never hurts to be different.

But the same goes for European weapons too. If an inscription has a reference to God but you don't know their religion well, you wouldn't get far. If a cavalry saber has a number and a mark on it but you don't know the system of master craftsmen and apprentice, you don't know the mass production of things, you don't know the exportation of British and German blades to Africa and India, etc... you'd be lost.

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

On another matter, on the attempt to blend the supernatural with the physical, I'd like to repeat this account I first quoted here, describing an Igorot "amazon priestess" in action in the battlefield:

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

If she was hot I'd fight for her too

But on a more serious note... how real is this?
The Spanish tend to make their best enemies seem like demonic fanatics... rather than well-trained combatants fighting invaders... this probably also has to do with the Spanish world-view (leading back to what you were saying).

The Mayans idolaters, the Moro Mohemmadans, the Igorot pagans...

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

I too have found that happening. My quest to learn more about the Southern Chinese way of fighting, as well as Taiwanese aborigines has led me to brush up on my Mandarin and also try to relearn Min-nan/Taiwanese! I've found myself looking at Chinese clothing styles from Fujian, their boats, etc. I have also been listening to Taiwanese aboriginal songs and folktales, as well as their weaving and tribal structures ...

Looks like we are trodding similar paths

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

If she was hot I'd fight for her too But on a more serious note... how real is this? The Spanish tend to make their best enemies seem like demonic fanatics... rather than well-trained combatants fighting invaders... this probably also has to do with the Spanish world-view (leading back to what you were saying).

Well, she is probably already 80 years old

Seriously, I agree with your hunch that that was a case of biased reporting.

In the 333 years that Spain controlled substantial portions of what is now Philippines (i.e., given that the Igorots, the Moros, the Lumad, and other lowland and upland "infieles" were not really subdued), Spain never made money (the government was always on a deficit). The US had the same experience.

And so naturally, the on-site bureaucrats' "press release" to the mother country would always be biased lest they (the administrators) be seen in a negative light.

When the Filipino national hero José Rizal reconstructed prehispanic Philippines' history for instance, he did not rely on the Spanish friars' accounts.

And that's precisely because their accounts were always citing extraordinary events. In the case of the friars, they were recounting always magical and supernatural occurrences among the activities of the natives.

While Rizal for sure (and most Filipinos) would not absolutely rule out such phenomenon, I think Rizal saw that the friars' stories have simply too much of those stories.

Now the locals' accounts of the overall history will also be biased for sure, to be fair.

Thus for me that's the challenge for the historian -- how to meld two half-truths and come out with a more objective account.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

But on a more serious note... how real is this?

By the way, if you're referring to the alleged use of a "narcotic root" by the Igorot warriors during battle, it's the first time I've heard about it. If Nonoy Tan is reading this, then maybe he can shed more light on the matter.

As for a warrior getting berserk via the botanical route, I think most of us know that certain Viking warriors 'popularized' this.

And the very word itself (berserk) is derived from Old Norse of the same meaning.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

History

Hilda Ellis-Davidson draws a parallel between berserkers and the mention by the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII in his book De cerimoniis aulae byzantinae ("Book of Ceremonies of the Byzantine court") of a "Gothic Dance" performed by members of his Varangian Guard (Norse warriors working in the service of the Byzantine Empire), who took part wearing animal skins and masks: she believes this may have been connected with berserker rites.

In 1015, Jarl Eiríkr Hákonarson of Norway outlawed berserkers. Grágás, the medieval Icelandic law code, sentenced berserker warriors to outlawry. By the 1100s, organised berserker war-bands had disappeared.

King Harald Fairhair's use of berserker "shock troops" broadened his sphere of influence. Other Scandinavian kings used berserkers as part of their army of hirdmen and sometimes ranked them as equivalent to a royal bodyguard. It may be that some of those warriors only adopted the organisation or rituals of berserk war-bands or used the name as a deterrent or claim of their ferocity.

Still, some scholars consider the frenzied and indomitable berserker and his bloodshot eyes to stand right alongside horned Viking helmets as a "feature of later literary [works] rather than contemporary historical ones", placing the legitimacy of Icelandic sagas as historical records into question. Little Icelandic literature was recorded before the middle of the Thirteenth Century, more than two hundred years after the conversion of Iceland to Christianity. The sagas are broadly interested in history, but they are re-tellings of legend and in no way constitute a proper historical record. The family sagas in particular shed more light on 13th- and 14th-Century ideas about the 9th-11th centuries than they do on the legendary period itself.

Irish hero Setanta (Cúchulainn) is said to have been a berserker in some legends.

Theories on the causes of the berserkergang

Theories about what caused berserker behaviour include ingestion of materials with psychoactive properties, psychological processes, and medical conditions.

Modern scholars believe certain examples of berserker rage to have been induced voluntarily by the consumption of drugs such as the hallucinogenic mushroom Amanita muscaria, commonly known as the fly agaric or fly Amanita (Howard D. Fabing. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 83 [Nov. 1956] p. 232), or massive quantities of alcohol (Robert Wernick. The Vikings. Alexandria VA: Time-Life Books. 1979. p. 285). While such practices would fit in with ritual usages, other explanations for the berserker's madness have been put forward, including self-induced hysteria, epilepsy, mental illness or genetic flaws (Peter G. Foote and David m. Wilson. The Viking Achievement. London: Sidgewick & Jackson. 1970. p. 285).

A Horizon Book on Vikings claims[citation needed] that some chieftains would hold their berserkers in reserve during a battle. Once a portion of the enemy line appeared to tire or weaken, the chieftains would send the berserkers charging into the enemy ranks to hopefully open a break and even panic the enemy. The book also claimed that while on sea voyages close to land, berserkers were sometimes asked to go ashore to find objects on land to wrestle or bash to give vent to their fury.

Botanists have suggested the behaviour might be tied to ingestion of bog myrtle (Myrica gale syn: Gale palustris), a plant that was one of the main spices in alcoholic beverages in Scandinavia. The drawback is that it increases the hangover headache afterwards. Drinking alcoholic beverages spiced with bog myrtle the night before going to battle might have resulted in unusually aggressive behaviour.

The notion that Nordic Vikings used the fly agaric mushroom to produce their berserker rages was first suggested by the Swedish professor Samuel Ödman in 1784. Ödman based his theory on reports about the use of fly agaric among Siberian shamans. The notion has become widespread since the 19th century, but no contemporary sources mention this use or anything similar in their description of berserkers. In addition, the injection of bufotenine from Bufo marinus toad skin into humans was shown to produce similar symptoms to the "Berserker" descriptions. These findings, first examined by Howard Fabing in 1956, were later linked to the induction of zombie characteristics by ethnobotanists in 1983.

A simpler theory attributes the behaviour to drunken rage. It is also possible that berserkers worked themselves into their frenzy through purely psychological processes, perhaps using frenzied rituals and dances. According to Saxo Grammaticus they also drank bear or wolf blood.

Parallels in other cultures

Among the Irish, Cúchulainn acted in the 'battle frenzy', or 'contortion', and many other famous Irish warriors from the pre-Christian period became possessed and frenzied. They are described in texts such as The Tain as foaming at the mouth and not calming down after battle until doused with cold water.

Similar behaviour is described in the Iliad, where warriors who are "possessed" by a god or goddess exhibit superhuman powers.
In historical times, the Spartan warrior Aristodemus is mentioned as acting with a berserker-like fury at the Battle of Plataea, to redeem himself from accusations of having acted with cowardice at Thermopylae.

Berzerk behavior is also similar to the Amok frenzy described among Moro tribesmen in the Philippines and among other tribes in Malaysia.

It's a long read but I thought it was interesting.