Kaskara for Comment.

katana · 30th August 2009, 11:54 AM

Hi Rick and Jim

,
I am probably 'grasping at straws' but I cannot find another Kaskara with a 'remotely' similar pommel. The piso podang is generally considered to be 'Indian' influenced. A number of Sudanese weapons IMHO are also 'Indian' influenced (the haldie and the 'horned mace' spring to mind).
With the constant trade between India, the Arabs and North Eastern Africa ...'styles' would 'migrate'.

Afterall, why would a piso podang be displayed in a Yemen Millitary Museum

The pommel on my Kaskara seems quite rare and possibly influenced from, perhaps India. The question is, if this is correct, why would the owner/creator of this sword choose this design ? Why is it so different from the standardised pommel.
I have posted this on SFI asking if anyone had any ideas as to the origins of the pommel design .....I have received no replies

Regards David

Rumpel · 30th October 2010, 01:08 AM

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but I spent my lunch break salivating over the BM's Sackler Gallery today.

They have a beautiful silver-hilted kaskara on temporary display this week (they're rejigging the African weapons cases at the moment) with a gorgeous European-foliate design hammered-sliver hilt but similar pommel. The tag just said Sudan, 20th c, but I think that's a failure of description on their part. The (huge) throwing knives case had a tag saying, essentially, 'we have no idea what any of these are or mean...'

katana · 1st November 2010, 06:38 PM

Hi Rumpel,
thank you for for remembering this thread

, I have tried to find an image on the web (of the sword you mentioned), but have been unsucessful. Do you have a picture or a link ? Thank you
Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2010, 06:52 PM

Rumpel, I join David in thanking you for reviving this thread. The kaskaras and takoubas are topics many of us here have profound interest in, and I am honestly always saddened when these threads just stall and disappear into the archives. It is heartening to see interest in them, and I always look forward to new entries.
You are unfortunately right, there is always a good measure of lack of interest in pursuing accurate detail in many museums, as they often do not consider such detail worthy of budget issues or even worse, many museums have simply stored away many weapons for PC issues. I know there are many museum professionals out there who read here, and hope you all know, the many of you who take a serious professional approach are well recognized and very much appreciated.
As for the others, we can only hope they will also join in at some point. I know there are probably many of us out there who would gladly volunteer to assist in cataloguing items....I know of several right now doing just that.
Our gratitude goes out to all of you.

All the best,
Jim

Edster · 3rd November 2010, 12:22 AM

This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors.

The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984

Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper.

Thanks,
Edster

Iain · 3rd November 2010, 05:00 PM

Hi Edster,

Interesting information in your post. Could you elaborate on the source or if it's from on the ground discussions you had in Sudan?

Very interesting subject for sure!

Best,

Iain

Rumpel · 3rd November 2010, 10:47 PM

Hi David,

Remembering your kaskara isn't a problem; I just wish I could forget it. Jealousy's a terrible thing...

I tried to go to the BM in my lunch break today, but strikes worked against me. Having looked on the website (and it was the Sainsbury, rather than Sackler gallery

), the only kaskara viewable was this: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ern/sword.aspx

It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

Rick · 3rd November 2010, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors.

The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984

Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper.

Thanks,
Edster

Thank you !

Duran, talismanic .

Interesting .

Rick

Edster · 4th November 2010, 12:13 AM

Iain,

I spent a week at the Kassala, Sudan blacksmith market in 1984 and did socio-economic research with the sword and knife makers there. Learned about the manufacturing processes as well as historic and cultural significance of sword and knife use. Hopefully, a paper I wrote of the experience will be shared on the EAA forum in the next week or so.

The info on the Fly motif was provided by swordsmiths and other knowledgable members of the market.

It was an exciting and rare opportunity to see how the kaskara swords were made much like they had always been made, at least since forged steel blades were worked.

Best regards,
Ed

3rd November 2010, 12:22 AM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors. The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984 Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper. Thanks, Edster Attached Images

30th August 2009, 11:54 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rick and Jim , I am probably 'grasping at straws' but I cannot find another Kaskara with a 'remotely' similar pommel. The piso podang is generally considered to be 'Indian' influenced. A number of Sudanese weapons IMHO are also 'Indian' influenced (the haldie and the 'horned mace' spring to mind). With the constant trade between India, the Arabs and North Eastern Africa ...'styles' would 'migrate'. Afterall, why would a piso podang be displayed in a Yemen Millitary Museum The pommel on my Kaskara seems quite rare and possibly influenced from, perhaps India. The question is, if this is correct, why would the owner/creator of this sword choose this design ? Why is it so different from the standardised pommel. I have posted this on SFI asking if anyone had any ideas as to the origins of the pommel design .....I have received no replies Regards David

30th October 2010, 01:08 AM	#2
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Sorry to revive a dead thread, but I spent my lunch break salivating over the BM's Sackler Gallery today. They have a beautiful silver-hilted kaskara on temporary display this week (they're rejigging the African weapons cases at the moment) with a gorgeous European-foliate design hammered-sliver hilt but similar pommel. The tag just said Sudan, 20th c, but I think that's a failure of description on their part. The (huge) throwing knives case had a tag saying, essentially, 'we have no idea what any of these are or mean...'

1st November 2010, 06:38 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rumpel, thank you for for remembering this thread , I have tried to find an image on the web (of the sword you mentioned), but have been unsucessful. Do you have a picture or a link ? Thank you Kind Regards David

1st November 2010, 06:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Rumpel, I join David in thanking you for reviving this thread. The kaskaras and takoubas are topics many of us here have profound interest in, and I am honestly always saddened when these threads just stall and disappear into the archives. It is heartening to see interest in them, and I always look forward to new entries. You are unfortunately right, there is always a good measure of lack of interest in pursuing accurate detail in many museums, as they often do not consider such detail worthy of budget issues or even worse, many museums have simply stored away many weapons for PC issues. I know there are many museum professionals out there who read here, and hope you all know, the many of you who take a serious professional approach are well recognized and very much appreciated. As for the others, we can only hope they will also join in at some point. I know there are probably many of us out there who would gladly volunteer to assist in cataloguing items....I know of several right now doing just that. Our gratitude goes out to all of you. All the best, Jim

3rd November 2010, 05:00 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Edster, Interesting information in your post. Could you elaborate on the source or if it's from on the ground discussions you had in Sudan? Very interesting subject for sure! Best, Iain

3rd November 2010, 10:47 PM	#7
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Hi David, Remembering your kaskara isn't a problem; I just wish I could forget it. Jealousy's a terrible thing... I tried to go to the BM in my lunch break today, but strikes worked against me. Having looked on the website (and it was the Sainsbury, rather than Sackler gallery ), the only kaskara viewable was this: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ern/sword.aspx It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

4th November 2010, 12:13 AM	#9
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Iain, I spent a week at the Kassala, Sudan blacksmith market in 1984 and did socio-economic research with the sword and knife makers there. Learned about the manufacturing processes as well as historic and cultural significance of sword and knife use. Hopefully, a paper I wrote of the experience will be shared on the EAA forum in the next week or so. The info on the Fly motif was provided by swordsmiths and other knowledgable members of the market. It was an exciting and rare opportunity to see how the kaskara swords were made much like they had always been made, at least since forged steel blades were worked. Best regards, Ed