Opinions on this sword

M ELEY · 29th August 2009, 12:54 PM

Hello Gavin and thanks for commenting. It does indeed have an Oriental look to it and I'm sure that's why the seller was told by antiques dealers that it was "Middle Eastern". Having now received the blade, I still feel that it's probably Spanish colonial. The primitive wrought iron is thicker and thinner in places as it runs to the tip. Not to insult it, but the whole sword is "clunky" and hard to swing. I think it's just a made-from-scratch piece that some desparate pirate had made to attack ships with (Sorry, couldn't resist-

).
Jim, you mentioned the square iron guard being of the British pattern while the blade does indeed resemble some espada I have seen. Being that the West Indies both fell under these two countries influence, I wonder if this might be a combination of styles. Just a theory without proof, of course. For all I know, Gav might be right and this might be something else entirely.

Does anyone know when ribbed iron hilts such as this started? I'm again thinking late 18th and with the advent of boarding cutlass, but perhaps there are earlier examples?

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2009, 01:29 PM

Just future proofing this post with some images of the sword

Gav

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2009, 12:43 AM

Hi Mark and Gav,
I think we're all basically on about the same page on this. It seems to be a very munitions grade example that is clearly of blacksmith quality, the crude and simple squared knuckleguard almost literally rings 'blacksmith'.
The construction is essentially of the turn of the century customs/ police sword design, but the cast, ribbed guard is remarkably narrow without the bulging profile intended to provide better hold for the hand.

The blade does reflect from a given point, the upturn which seems to be influenced by the parabolic curves of eastern sabres, but toward the end of the 18th century, this was a commonly applied feature found on various European sabres. There were a number of prototypes and forms that sought to emulate the increased point of contact in slashing cuts by sometimes dramatic blade curves.
The frontier espada ancha carried a subtle version on the uptick point, and this type point is characteristic, but notably less dramatic than this example. I still think the blade, the crude forging notwithstanding, is more like Spanish colonial work of the end of the 18th into 19th c.

Good question on the cast ribbed grip, and though it seems introduced about turn of the century with the cutlasses (so called British M1804), these kinds of features dont just suddenly appear, so there must be earlier prototypes.
Need to check Neumann, and some of the other European sources.

Another cast weapon which found use not only in Spain and England, but became regular munitions grade equipment for almost every European army, was the familiar 'briquet'. These cast brass hilt hangers were simple, cheap, and ideal for equipping masses of 'other ranks'. They are considered a turn of the century type, but it seems they had actually been around some time before.
I know of an example of Spanish colonial handiwork utilizing a three bar guard of a cavalry sabre, the hilt of one of these briquets with the knucklebow removed, and the cut down dragoon broadsword blade of the familiar type often seen on early espada anchas and military swords.

It is well established that supplies into the frontiers of New Spain were hard to come by, and the constant lack of ammunition was one of the main reasons that the lance was such a primary weapon. The lack of other supplies for arming the auxiliary troops and maintaining servicability resulted in the few armourers in presidios using whatever supplies came in, with very little reaching the outposts.

Incongruent and essentially bastardized items such as this amalgam of parts were not unusual, nor were blacksmiths interpretations of weapons. While the experienced smiths in the presidios produced a basically identifiable form of hilt for espada anchas, with blades used in variation, the items with lesser skilled smiths in more remote regions must have been interesting to say the least.

It still does not seem unreasonable for someone in any of the ports in this thriving network through the Caribbean to have sought a simple, yet sturdy fighting weapon, or complement of them. Captains had to supply the arms lockers on thier ships, so a small store of these might have been produced as such.

As usual, just thinking out loud

what a fascinating weapon, and its trying to talk to us guys!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 30th August 2009, 05:23 AM

Thank you gents for taking the time on this odd piece. Gav, I do appreciate you posting the original pics here and larger than they appeared in the auction at that! Thanks.
I looked all through my references, but with the exception of a very small section on "private purchase swords" in Gilkerson's, not much more to add. Ribbed iron seemed to be the thing for cutlass. I had forgotten about the ole' briquet, with its brass ribbed grip. Variations of this weapon made it to sea as well, particularly the French styles. Neumann didn't have any ribbed hilts that I saw, but did have a nice primitive colonial American hanger near the back of the sword section with a knucklebow exactly like mine- being a blacksmith-made bar bent in2 places like this one. I did find that old Fagan catalog with the sword similar to mine in blade curvature and crudeness (it's grip was nothing more than a built-up tang) with the rounded knuckle guard being just a plain bar pounded in this shape. It was listed as a 'probable' privateer sword made in the Caribbean, possibly by slaves (?) for some sailor of fortune. Of course, no actual data to back up the information. I think I will start researching just to see if there were any slave-made weapons in the Indies in any museums.

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2009, 08:12 AM

Hi Mark,
Ive been plowing through Robson, and Neumann, and noticed the American cutlasses, which are remarkable similar in construction, but no blades like this one....I remain convinced at this point that this upticked point is the work of a Spanish colonial smith who knew, at least in degree, the frontier espada anchas. It remains unclear if perhaps the blade, or blades were fashioned by one smith, and mounted by a blacksmith, or of the entire work was all by the same smith.

In curiosity about how early ribbed iron grips were used, I did find one reference in Neumann (p.185, 372.S) describing one of the earlier forms of double ellipse hilts (favored by British and American forces). It is noted, concerning some of these cutlasses, showing as mentioned very similar construction, that, "...most early examples have a smooth cylinder of lapped iron covering thier grip. Post Revolutionary War versions usually include a corrugated iron grip..."

On p.102, describing American ships which were typically privately owned merchantmen or privateers, and that the cutlasses were "..usually sturdy, but made as inexpensively as possible-more often by the local blacksmith than the sword cutler".

By the latter 18th century, Spain maintained control of many Caribbean ports at least nominally, and there was increasing trade with the colonies, with one of the key locations Havana.

It would seem these crude rectangular stirrup hilts were certainly established in the American colonies just prior to and after the Revolutionary War, and I have often wondered just how involved Spain might have been in certain diplomatic or other contacts in these times. I have heard of a degree of contact, but never really studied it further.

The condition of this sword overall as well as its workmanlike composition does suggest late 18th to early 19th c. and potentially from regions with a great deal of activity between wars, smuggling, trade and colonial decay.
Its a tough one, but more interesting as we go.

Best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 30th August 2009, 09:39 AM

Thanks for that quote, Jim, concerning privateer swords being just as often blacksmith-made rather than from a sword smith. This piece fits the bill. I will definitely look into the possibile Havanna connection, as I seem to recall a museum set up in an ancient Spanish fort there. In my collection, I have another oddity with corrigated iron grip. It is without question a boarding type cutlass of odd construction similar to the m1803 and m1940 English cutlass. I didn't mention it before because posting pics for me is tantamont to writing a thesis

, but it might add to our theories and pool of knowledge, so I'll try and post those soon.

M ELEY · 31st August 2009, 08:01 PM

Pics of iron hilts...

29th August 2009, 01:29 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Some images Just future proofing this post with some images of the sword Gav Attached Images

31st August 2009, 08:01 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Pics... Pics of iron hilts... Attached Images

29th August 2009, 12:54 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Hello Gavin and thanks for commenting. It does indeed have an Oriental look to it and I'm sure that's why the seller was told by antiques dealers that it was "Middle Eastern". Having now received the blade, I still feel that it's probably Spanish colonial. The primitive wrought iron is thicker and thinner in places as it runs to the tip. Not to insult it, but the whole sword is "clunky" and hard to swing. I think it's just a made-from-scratch piece that some desparate pirate had made to attack ships with (Sorry, couldn't resist- ). Jim, you mentioned the square iron guard being of the British pattern while the blade does indeed resemble some espada I have seen. Being that the West Indies both fell under these two countries influence, I wonder if this might be a combination of styles. Just a theory without proof, of course. For all I know, Gav might be right and this might be something else entirely. Does anyone know when ribbed iron hilts such as this started? I'm again thinking late 18th and with the advent of boarding cutlass, but perhaps there are earlier examples?

30th August 2009, 12:43 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hi Mark and Gav, I think we're all basically on about the same page on this. It seems to be a very munitions grade example that is clearly of blacksmith quality, the crude and simple squared knuckleguard almost literally rings 'blacksmith'. The construction is essentially of the turn of the century customs/ police sword design, but the cast, ribbed guard is remarkably narrow without the bulging profile intended to provide better hold for the hand. The blade does reflect from a given point, the upturn which seems to be influenced by the parabolic curves of eastern sabres, but toward the end of the 18th century, this was a commonly applied feature found on various European sabres. There were a number of prototypes and forms that sought to emulate the increased point of contact in slashing cuts by sometimes dramatic blade curves. The frontier espada ancha carried a subtle version on the uptick point, and this type point is characteristic, but notably less dramatic than this example. I still think the blade, the crude forging notwithstanding, is more like Spanish colonial work of the end of the 18th into 19th c. Good question on the cast ribbed grip, and though it seems introduced about turn of the century with the cutlasses (so called British M1804), these kinds of features dont just suddenly appear, so there must be earlier prototypes. Need to check Neumann, and some of the other European sources. Another cast weapon which found use not only in Spain and England, but became regular munitions grade equipment for almost every European army, was the familiar 'briquet'. These cast brass hilt hangers were simple, cheap, and ideal for equipping masses of 'other ranks'. They are considered a turn of the century type, but it seems they had actually been around some time before. I know of an example of Spanish colonial handiwork utilizing a three bar guard of a cavalry sabre, the hilt of one of these briquets with the knucklebow removed, and the cut down dragoon broadsword blade of the familiar type often seen on early espada anchas and military swords. It is well established that supplies into the frontiers of New Spain were hard to come by, and the constant lack of ammunition was one of the main reasons that the lance was such a primary weapon. The lack of other supplies for arming the auxiliary troops and maintaining servicability resulted in the few armourers in presidios using whatever supplies came in, with very little reaching the outposts. Incongruent and essentially bastardized items such as this amalgam of parts were not unusual, nor were blacksmiths interpretations of weapons. While the experienced smiths in the presidios produced a basically identifiable form of hilt for espada anchas, with blades used in variation, the items with lesser skilled smiths in more remote regions must have been interesting to say the least. It still does not seem unreasonable for someone in any of the ports in this thriving network through the Caribbean to have sought a simple, yet sturdy fighting weapon, or complement of them. Captains had to supply the arms lockers on thier ships, so a small store of these might have been produced as such. As usual, just thinking out loud what a fascinating weapon, and its trying to talk to us guys! All the best, Jim

30th August 2009, 05:23 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Thank you gents for taking the time on this odd piece. Gav, I do appreciate you posting the original pics here and larger than they appeared in the auction at that! Thanks. I looked all through my references, but with the exception of a very small section on "private purchase swords" in Gilkerson's, not much more to add. Ribbed iron seemed to be the thing for cutlass. I had forgotten about the ole' briquet, with its brass ribbed grip. Variations of this weapon made it to sea as well, particularly the French styles. Neumann didn't have any ribbed hilts that I saw, but did have a nice primitive colonial American hanger near the back of the sword section with a knucklebow exactly like mine- being a blacksmith-made bar bent in2 places like this one. I did find that old Fagan catalog with the sword similar to mine in blade curvature and crudeness (it's grip was nothing more than a built-up tang) with the rounded knuckle guard being just a plain bar pounded in this shape. It was listed as a 'probable' privateer sword made in the Caribbean, possibly by slaves (?) for some sailor of fortune. Of course, no actual data to back up the information. I think I will start researching just to see if there were any slave-made weapons in the Indies in any museums.

30th August 2009, 08:12 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hi Mark, Ive been plowing through Robson, and Neumann, and noticed the American cutlasses, which are remarkable similar in construction, but no blades like this one....I remain convinced at this point that this upticked point is the work of a Spanish colonial smith who knew, at least in degree, the frontier espada anchas. It remains unclear if perhaps the blade, or blades were fashioned by one smith, and mounted by a blacksmith, or of the entire work was all by the same smith. In curiosity about how early ribbed iron grips were used, I did find one reference in Neumann (p.185, 372.S) describing one of the earlier forms of double ellipse hilts (favored by British and American forces). It is noted, concerning some of these cutlasses, showing as mentioned very similar construction, that, "...most early examples have a smooth cylinder of lapped iron covering thier grip. Post Revolutionary War versions usually include a corrugated iron grip..." On p.102, describing American ships which were typically privately owned merchantmen or privateers, and that the cutlasses were "..usually sturdy, but made as inexpensively as possible-more often by the local blacksmith than the sword cutler". By the latter 18th century, Spain maintained control of many Caribbean ports at least nominally, and there was increasing trade with the colonies, with one of the key locations Havana. It would seem these crude rectangular stirrup hilts were certainly established in the American colonies just prior to and after the Revolutionary War, and I have often wondered just how involved Spain might have been in certain diplomatic or other contacts in these times. I have heard of a degree of contact, but never really studied it further. The condition of this sword overall as well as its workmanlike composition does suggest late 18th to early 19th c. and potentially from regions with a great deal of activity between wars, smuggling, trade and colonial decay. Its a tough one, but more interesting as we go. Best regards, Jim

30th August 2009, 09:39 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Thanks for that quote, Jim, concerning privateer swords being just as often blacksmith-made rather than from a sword smith. This piece fits the bill. I will definitely look into the possibile Havanna connection, as I seem to recall a museum set up in an ancient Spanish fort there. In my collection, I have another oddity with corrigated iron grip. It is without question a boarding type cutlass of odd construction similar to the m1803 and m1940 English cutlass. I didn't mention it before because posting pics for me is tantamont to writing a thesis , but it might add to our theories and pool of knowledge, so I'll try and post those soon.