On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Pallas! I wonder if the 'deje' is a term , does not seem like a name or it would be capitalized right?
Any Spanish translators out there that can help?

Best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Here are some more pictures of the sword, which I have been lucky enough to acquire. These swords are on the shorter side, and this particular one is quite light as well, especially compared to my other mystery/berber sabre.
Now, onto the identification.
The blade most certainly has NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON - worn off a bit, but still there. Interestingly, the second part of the popular Spanish motto is missing - it is not on the other side of the blade, just nowhere to be found.
The cloth baldric has faded, so I doubt anyone would be able to use it to point to the sword's origin.
The scabbard is of a peculiar construction - instead of two symmetric wooden halves, it has just one, from the decorated side. The side, which would press against the body has been left undecorated. Does anyone recognize the scabbard decoration?
Finally, it is a full tang construction, kind of like a machete. There is file work on the spine of the tang, which reminds me of something - I think of the brass spacers on the hilt of an Albacete dagger?
Hopefully, the pictures will help someone to come up with an idea based on the various elements and their decoration. Given how I now have two of these sabres with Spanish mottos, have I inadvertently crossed into Spanish colonial weapons?
Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

Interesting speculations. As I recall, Jim, when I identified that hilt as belonging to a Machete de Guanabacoa and refered to the article from José Luis Calvó, I did not mention that the machete were from Toledo. It must be pointed that the spanish mottos do not imply a spanish manofacture of the blade, but a spanish colonial presence. José Luis Calvó very clearly states that those blades used in the machetes of Guanabacoa were originally made in Germany and USA with spanish inscriptions, and latter they were made in Toledo as a reglamentary weapons of the spanish colonial army, but I think they were mounted probably in Cuba anyway. Guanabacoa is a village near from La Habana, with a strong african presence those days. This ethnic element is the common feature among this hilts discussed here, since this type of sabres are characterized mainly by the hilt, though there can be found blades with a reverse tip. It must be mentioned that the african presence is also strong in Brazil, a lot more than the spanish commerce in that ex-portuguese colony in the 19th Century.

But there are some distinctive differences among the above swords. One of them, very obvious, is the presence or absence of a guard, the latter a feature alien to the spanish swords. My own speculation: those swords were made with european blades, but not exclusively, and mounted with handles in a style which has a strong african flavor. The presence of spanish mottos could mean blades imported from or taken to the spanish. Other blades in the same type of swords, or customized variations in the blades and hilts (in the machetes of Guanabacoa, for example), could mean personal preferences or availability of blades from a specific origin. The same style of weapon can have blades from different origins, customized or not latter by the owner. The important thing here is the style of hilt with it´s guard, and in the case of the so called berber swords, the presence of the reverse point, which must be explained in terms of style or in terms of availability of specific blades with this characteristic. I believe the sword from Teodor has an european blade with a history, but it came in some way to non european hands and mounted or remounted in the actual style. It could be made for the American market and at the end not sold, used or exported there, but elsewhere. The spanish inscription does not mean a spanish manofacture.

Ariel´s reference is important. It gives the first substancial proof that the sword is, or could more probably be, north african. Another point: the machete of Guanabacoa is a reglamentary spanish military weapon. There is no evidence that the´berber sword´is. This brings me the idea that the latter is an opportunistic use of whatever available sabre blade mounted in a special local style, not specifically ´colonial´, but during the colonial wars.

Regards
Gonzalo G

[TVV]

Interesting points, Gonzalo, thank you for your response. I was hoping you will chime in, as your expertise on Central American and Spanish colonial weapons in general could be very helpful here.

If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that these swords, known until recently as "berber" due to a Tirri attribution, are not regimental. I fully agree, as they vary considerably in their shape and size. You also point out the African flavor of the hilt and scabbard decoration, which I also agree with, and this is not surprising considering the large African population in many of the New World colonies, especially in the Carribean.

I am wondering, could these sabres simply be sabres preferred by irregulars in the Spanish army, mostly of African descent, from the Carribean? My other sword with its motto obviously referring to the Dominican Republic would support this.

As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example):

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052

Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip.

Now, the Riffian sword in the Versailles painting is most intriguing, and I have no doubt that Ariel knew what he saw. However, a painting is a work of art, and I would prefer to see a picture of Riffian warriors with such swords, before I am convinced that this is indeed a Riffian weapon.

Regards,
Teodor

[M ELEY]

Dmitry, I love your Brazilian (until proven otherwise!) cutlass. It is similar, but superior to my example. Not to divert the subject away from the Berber sabers, but as far as the Brazilian goes, I don't think there is much question that they aren't at least Spanish colonial if not specific to the Brazilian region.

Jim, I had also seen that saber with Pedro II's coat-of-arms. It was spot-on. The only thing was the timeline...later period than I would have suspected, but then again, many of the Spanish broadswords were used over many centuries. I tried to track it down again to no avail.

Dmitry's sword has that distinctive snake design on the finial we've discussed before on espada. I just saw a nice espada for sale on a website with the same pattern, but because it was an active sale, I didn't list it here (I am assuming a sale item and an active auction are considered the same??).

The Brazil sabers seem to have two distinct types of blades- straight (or nearly straight) and the classic curved type. I'm wondering what these swords were ultimately used for? Horseman's sabers? Cutlass in the many coastal ports? The pattern obviously was repeated, yet not a "model" used by any military or militia, apparently. Not trying to offend anyone, but I'm having trouble envisioning anyone riding around in the jungle or pampas on horseback with these strapped to their side. True, horseman's sabers could be rather large, but the guard seems more cutlass-like (what, me biased ).
The folded stirrup on these seems to indicate one worn on the side, like the smaller espada. So...was it like an infantry-type sword? I'm just struggling trying to imagine HOW the sword was put to use in this environment if not as the classic ship-board pattern.

Teodor, you started this great topic (thank you!) with a picture of the sabers in Barcelona. I'm curious what that museum listed all these swords (the Brazil sword (?), the Berber sabers (?) and espada) as in their collection? Do you know? Thanks.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Teodor, you started this great topic (thank you!) with a picture of the sabers in Barcelona. I'm curious what that museum listed all these swords (the Brazil sword (?), the Berber sabers (?) and espada) as in their collection? Do you know? Thanks.

The picture was made by a friend of mine, who visited the Military Museum in Montjuic a year ago - I just noticed it recently among all the rest of the pictures. Unfortunately, he has not made any pictures of labels.

I will be going to Barcelona in a month. Unfortunately, I read that the museum was closed permanently in May of this year. Part of the collection may have been transferred to Girona, and if true, I will try to visit there as well, as I am also very curious to see how these swords are identified.

If one of the Spanish members is reading this, please let me know where all the weapons from the Barcelona Military Museum are to be found now.

Best regards,
Teodor

[Marc]

Well, I have to check, but IIRC the collection was indeed supposedly set to be moved to the Figueres Castle (in the province of Girona, but not in Girona city itself, just to clarify), bit I think it's still far from being actually on display there.
I'll confirm before you leave, though.

Best,

Marc

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by TVV

As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example):

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052

Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip.

I just saw your post, Teodor. Yes, you have a point. I don´t ignore this features in the machete of Guanabacoa. You can see more like this here:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

Anyway, the history and details related with this weapon are not really known. Checking the manofacture of the blades, since I wrotte from memory my first post, shows the presence of Toledo blades on this machetes from the beginning. They could be used as blade of opportunity, or manofactured purposedly for this model, we don´t know. You have to take on account, also, that this machetes were not developed as weapons, but mainly as tools due to the dense vegetation on the island of Cuba. Maybe this is another factor to take on account in order to explain the absence of a guard. But I think this is not the case of the berber sabres, which clearly are a cavalry weapon used mainly fight.

Still, the absence of a guard is not a common feature in the spanish swords and this machete is precisely a proof of the validity of my arguments, though I can be mistaken. I believe this kind of weapon-tool was developed for the units called "Pardos" (because of their brown color, as they were blacks and half breed), but not exclusively, though the type of decoration which can be found in some blades seems very...un-spanish. As it can be understood, this machetes were originally designed and developed in Cuba, and apoved by the local authorities in the 1850´s decade, and latter adopted officially by the spanish army overseas in the 1890´s decade. I think the design originally has a strong african flavor, and at some point a guard was added in some variants. So, the construction of the handle and the absence of guard are not characteristically spanish.

Please check the spanish military weapons, and hardly you will find a machete (or any other sword) without guard and with this construction (if any). If you don´t understand spanish, there are plenty of illustrations in the articles from José Luis Calvó. You can save them and study the models of spanish military weapons which appear in this articles in PDF. At least, you will understand the name of the models and the dates.


On the other side, I am not expert in anything related with swords, just a student. But I studied history, and I like to relate swords, technology and history (including economic history or history of the economy) as different faces of the same phenomenon.

Please excuse my mistakes, but I am always is a hurry due lack of time online.
Regards

Gonzalo

[TVV]

Gonzalo,

All excellent points, as usual. I agree that the term "colonial" may have been used too freely here, something of which I am certainly guilty of.

I still do not see how a Balkan yataghan could be a colonial weapon though, because a colony implies a settlement or territory divided from the mother state by an obstacle, natural or other. The Ottoman Empire was contiguous, and its Balkan possessions under imemdiate control and access from the capital of Istanbul. I really do not see any similarities to the Spanish Empire here - maybe Tunis would have been a better analogy.

Another thing I need to point out is that in my opinion, the short length of these sabers, similar to that of a cutlass, would not make them great cavalry weapons. To me they seem much better suited for fighting on foot, or maybe even intended for a naval use.

I agree with the rest of your points. However, after re-reading your posts, I am still not sure what is your take on the origins of these sabres. I am sure you must have a hypothesis of your own, but to me it remains unclear.

Best regards and thank you for your participation,
Teodor

[TVV]

In an effort to bring yet another angle to the origin discussion of these swords, I am posting a comparison between the file work on the back of the tang on one of my "Berber" swords, and the hilt of an Albacete dagger, taken by Marcus back in 2006 while the Barcelona Military Museum still existed. The motif is similar.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting that Teodor! another intriguing element that compels the Spanish colonial aspects of these swords, though suggesting thier origins may indeed have been in Spains colonies in the Maghreb before diffusion abroad.
While in discussions of earlier years I had also considered the absence of these sabres in Charles Buttin's works. I am wondering if perhaps because they seem to have been situated in regions farther west from the French areas he was of course in, maybe he did not encounter these and they were not enough in presence by then to have been largely noticeable. I would presume that by the time of his residency in Morocco these would have already become diffused to the west.
The fact that these sabres seem to be almost invariably identified in groupings in Latin America and other Spanish ports of call does not necessarily mean that thier origins could not have indeed been in Moroccan regions, the Tirri references being the instance supporting this.

[TVV]

Jim,

How reliable is Tirri as a reference? I am sure he is correct about many attributions, but then, according to his book, we should still be looking for the laz bicagi in Egypt. We have to be careful not to propagate false information.

Regards,
Teodor