On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

Wodimi · 22nd August 2009, 01:15 AM

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

Jim McDougall · 22nd August 2009, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodimi

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

Exactly Wolf, thats what these were once thought to be about when I got mine back c. 1995, and the Rif was the attribution. However as these began to turn up over the years, no substantiation for this could be found. I think what did it for me was a discussion with several colleagues, including Dominique Buttin (whose Grandfather Charles lived in Morocco, and whose weapon collections from these regions are quite comprehensive), and the consensus seemed to agree likely Spanish colonial regions.

Actually, these heavy blades and the guardless hilts, as well as the opening which may well be for lanyard or sword knot, seem to lend well to the idea of machetes, which were a utility weapon prevalent in many of the colonies.
The Spanish colonial espada ancha (= wide heavy blade) in Mexico's frontiers eventually developed into a machete type weapon as well, in areas of heavy desert vegetation. In northern regions of plains it became more of a hunting/Bowie knife.

It also would be hard to imagine that these might not have appealed to the famed Barbary Pirates in certain cases, as they were certainly present in those days of the Spanish Main, just as you have noted Wolf.

All best regards,
Jim

pallas · 22nd August 2009, 08:18 PM

i found another picture of the "corsican cavalry saber" and "manuel deje" was the entire inscription etched on the ricasso.

Jim McDougall · 22nd August 2009, 08:48 PM

Thank you so much Pallas! I wonder if the 'deje' is a term , does not seem like a name or it would be capitalized right?
Any Spanish translators out there that can help?

Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 13th September 2009, 12:42 AM

Here are some more pictures of the sword, which I have been lucky enough to acquire. These swords are on the shorter side, and this particular one is quite light as well, especially compared to my other mystery/berber sabre.
Now, onto the identification.
The blade most certainly has NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON - worn off a bit, but still there. Interestingly, the second part of the popular Spanish motto is missing - it is not on the other side of the blade, just nowhere to be found.
The cloth baldric has faded, so I doubt anyone would be able to use it to point to the sword's origin.
The scabbard is of a peculiar construction - instead of two symmetric wooden halves, it has just one, from the decorated side. The side, which would press against the body has been left undecorated. Does anyone recognize the scabbard decoration?
Finally, it is a full tang construction, kind of like a machete. There is file work on the spine of the tang, which reminds me of something - I think of the brass spacers on the hilt of an Albacete dagger?
Hopefully, the pictures will help someone to come up with an idea based on the various elements and their decoration. Given how I now have two of these sabres with Spanish mottos, have I inadvertently crossed into Spanish colonial weapons?
Best regards,
Teodor

Gonzalo G · 13th September 2009, 05:25 AM

Interesting speculations. As I recall, Jim, when I identified that hilt as belonging to a Machete de Guanabacoa and refered to the article from José Luis Calvó, I did not mention that the machete were from Toledo. It must be pointed that the spanish mottos do not imply a spanish manofacture of the blade, but a spanish colonial presence. José Luis Calvó very clearly states that those blades used in the machetes of Guanabacoa were originally made in Germany and USA with spanish inscriptions, and latter they were made in Toledo as a reglamentary weapons of the spanish colonial army, but I think they were mounted probably in Cuba anyway. Guanabacoa is a village near from La Habana, with a strong african presence those days. This ethnic element is the common feature among this hilts discussed here, since this type of sabres are characterized mainly by the hilt, though there can be found blades with a reverse tip. It must be mentioned that the african presence is also strong in Brazil, a lot more than the spanish commerce in that ex-portuguese colony in the 19th Century.

But there are some distinctive differences among the above swords. One of them, very obvious, is the presence or absence of a guard, the latter a feature alien to the spanish swords. My own speculation: those swords were made with european blades, but not exclusively, and mounted with handles in a style which has a strong african flavor. The presence of spanish mottos could mean blades imported from or taken to the spanish. Other blades in the same type of swords, or customized variations in the blades and hilts (in the machetes of Guanabacoa, for example), could mean personal preferences or availability of blades from a specific origin. The same style of weapon can have blades from different origins, customized or not latter by the owner. The important thing here is the style of hilt with it´s guard, and in the case of the so called berber swords, the presence of the reverse point, which must be explained in terms of style or in terms of availability of specific blades with this characteristic. I believe the sword from Teodor has an european blade with a history, but it came in some way to non european hands and mounted or remounted in the actual style. It could be made for the American market and at the end not sold, used or exported there, but elsewhere. The spanish inscription does not mean a spanish manofacture.

Ariel´s reference is important. It gives the first substancial proof that the sword is, or could more probably be, north african. Another point: the machete of Guanabacoa is a reglamentary spanish military weapon. There is no evidence that the´berber sword´is. This brings me the idea that the latter is an opportunistic use of whatever available sabre blade mounted in a special local style, not specifically ´colonial´, but during the colonial wars.

Regards
Gonzalo G

TVV · 13th September 2009, 06:00 AM

Interesting points, Gonzalo, thank you for your response. I was hoping you will chime in, as your expertise on Central American and Spanish colonial weapons in general could be very helpful here.

If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that these swords, known until recently as "berber" due to a Tirri attribution, are not regimental. I fully agree, as they vary considerably in their shape and size. You also point out the African flavor of the hilt and scabbard decoration, which I also agree with, and this is not surprising considering the large African population in many of the New World colonies, especially in the Carribean.

I am wondering, could these sabres simply be sabres preferred by irregulars in the Spanish army, mostly of African descent, from the Carribean? My other sword with its motto obviously referring to the Dominican Republic would support this.

As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example):

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052

Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip.

Now, the Riffian sword in the Versailles painting is most intriguing, and I have no doubt that Ariel knew what he saw. However, a painting is a work of art, and I would prefer to see a picture of Riffian warriors with such swords, before I am convinced that this is indeed a Riffian weapon.

Regards,
Teodor

13th September 2009, 12:42 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Here are some more pictures of the sword, which I have been lucky enough to acquire. These swords are on the shorter side, and this particular one is quite light as well, especially compared to my other mystery/berber sabre. Now, onto the identification. The blade most certainly has NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON - worn off a bit, but still there. Interestingly, the second part of the popular Spanish motto is missing - it is not on the other side of the blade, just nowhere to be found. The cloth baldric has faded, so I doubt anyone would be able to use it to point to the sword's origin. The scabbard is of a peculiar construction - instead of two symmetric wooden halves, it has just one, from the decorated side. The side, which would press against the body has been left undecorated. Does anyone recognize the scabbard decoration? Finally, it is a full tang construction, kind of like a machete. There is file work on the spine of the tang, which reminds me of something - I think of the brass spacers on the hilt of an Albacete dagger? Hopefully, the pictures will help someone to come up with an idea based on the various elements and their decoration. Given how I now have two of these sabres with Spanish mottos, have I inadvertently crossed into Spanish colonial weapons? Best regards, Teodor Attached Images

22nd August 2009, 01:15 AM	#1
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber". The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco. Wolf www.spearcollector.com

22nd August 2009, 08:18 PM	#3
pallas Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 53	i found another picture of the "corsican cavalry saber" and "manuel deje" was the entire inscription etched on the ricasso.

22nd August 2009, 08:48 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much Pallas! I wonder if the 'deje' is a term , does not seem like a name or it would be capitalized right? Any Spanish translators out there that can help? Best regards, Jim

13th September 2009, 05:25 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Interesting speculations. As I recall, Jim, when I identified that hilt as belonging to a Machete de Guanabacoa and refered to the article from José Luis Calvó, I did not mention that the machete were from Toledo. It must be pointed that the spanish mottos do not imply a spanish manofacture of the blade, but a spanish colonial presence. José Luis Calvó very clearly states that those blades used in the machetes of Guanabacoa were originally made in Germany and USA with spanish inscriptions, and latter they were made in Toledo as a reglamentary weapons of the spanish colonial army, but I think they were mounted probably in Cuba anyway. Guanabacoa is a village near from La Habana, with a strong african presence those days. This ethnic element is the common feature among this hilts discussed here, since this type of sabres are characterized mainly by the hilt, though there can be found blades with a reverse tip. It must be mentioned that the african presence is also strong in Brazil, a lot more than the spanish commerce in that ex-portuguese colony in the 19th Century. But there are some distinctive differences among the above swords. One of them, very obvious, is the presence or absence of a guard, the latter a feature alien to the spanish swords. My own speculation: those swords were made with european blades, but not exclusively, and mounted with handles in a style which has a strong african flavor. The presence of spanish mottos could mean blades imported from or taken to the spanish. Other blades in the same type of swords, or customized variations in the blades and hilts (in the machetes of Guanabacoa, for example), could mean personal preferences or availability of blades from a specific origin. The same style of weapon can have blades from different origins, customized or not latter by the owner. The important thing here is the style of hilt with it´s guard, and in the case of the so called berber swords, the presence of the reverse point, which must be explained in terms of style or in terms of availability of specific blades with this characteristic. I believe the sword from Teodor has an european blade with a history, but it came in some way to non european hands and mounted or remounted in the actual style. It could be made for the American market and at the end not sold, used or exported there, but elsewhere. The spanish inscription does not mean a spanish manofacture. Ariel´s reference is important. It gives the first substancial proof that the sword is, or could more probably be, north african. Another point: the machete of Guanabacoa is a reglamentary spanish military weapon. There is no evidence that the´berber sword´is. This brings me the idea that the latter is an opportunistic use of whatever available sabre blade mounted in a special local style, not specifically ´colonial´, but during the colonial wars. Regards Gonzalo G

13th September 2009, 06:00 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Interesting points, Gonzalo, thank you for your response. I was hoping you will chime in, as your expertise on Central American and Spanish colonial weapons in general could be very helpful here. If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that these swords, known until recently as "berber" due to a Tirri attribution, are not regimental. I fully agree, as they vary considerably in their shape and size. You also point out the African flavor of the hilt and scabbard decoration, which I also agree with, and this is not surprising considering the large African population in many of the New World colonies, especially in the Carribean. I am wondering, could these sabres simply be sabres preferred by irregulars in the Spanish army, mostly of African descent, from the Carribean? My other sword with its motto obviously referring to the Dominican Republic would support this. As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example): http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052 Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip. Now, the Riffian sword in the Versailles painting is most intriguing, and I have no doubt that Ariel knew what he saw. However, a painting is a work of art, and I would prefer to see a picture of Riffian warriors with such swords, before I am convinced that this is indeed a Riffian weapon. Regards, Teodor