On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by TVV

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Whoa! Jeff you are amazing!!! Thats gotta be it, fits perfect as far as I can see. Never even thought of that, so once again the Spanish colonial presence is suggested.

All the best,
Jim

[Wodimi]

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Wodimi

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

Exactly Wolf, thats what these were once thought to be about when I got mine back c. 1995, and the Rif was the attribution. However as these began to turn up over the years, no substantiation for this could be found. I think what did it for me was a discussion with several colleagues, including Dominique Buttin (whose Grandfather Charles lived in Morocco, and whose weapon collections from these regions are quite comprehensive), and the consensus seemed to agree likely Spanish colonial regions.

Actually, these heavy blades and the guardless hilts, as well as the opening which may well be for lanyard or sword knot, seem to lend well to the idea of machetes, which were a utility weapon prevalent in many of the colonies.
The Spanish colonial espada ancha (= wide heavy blade) in Mexico's frontiers eventually developed into a machete type weapon as well, in areas of heavy desert vegetation. In northern regions of plains it became more of a hunting/Bowie knife.

It also would be hard to imagine that these might not have appealed to the famed Barbary Pirates in certain cases, as they were certainly present in those days of the Spanish Main, just as you have noted Wolf.

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

i found another picture of the "corsican cavalry saber" and "manuel deje" was the entire inscription etched on the ricasso.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Pallas! I wonder if the 'deje' is a term , does not seem like a name or it would be capitalized right?
Any Spanish translators out there that can help?

Best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Here are some more pictures of the sword, which I have been lucky enough to acquire. These swords are on the shorter side, and this particular one is quite light as well, especially compared to my other mystery/berber sabre.
Now, onto the identification.
The blade most certainly has NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON - worn off a bit, but still there. Interestingly, the second part of the popular Spanish motto is missing - it is not on the other side of the blade, just nowhere to be found.
The cloth baldric has faded, so I doubt anyone would be able to use it to point to the sword's origin.
The scabbard is of a peculiar construction - instead of two symmetric wooden halves, it has just one, from the decorated side. The side, which would press against the body has been left undecorated. Does anyone recognize the scabbard decoration?
Finally, it is a full tang construction, kind of like a machete. There is file work on the spine of the tang, which reminds me of something - I think of the brass spacers on the hilt of an Albacete dagger?
Hopefully, the pictures will help someone to come up with an idea based on the various elements and their decoration. Given how I now have two of these sabres with Spanish mottos, have I inadvertently crossed into Spanish colonial weapons?
Best regards,
Teodor

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Jeff,
I thought I saw the same thing, as there seems to be an O before the M, which fits nicely with the motto. Without having the sword at hand, I can only agree that this is most likely traces from the popular Spanish motto.
By now, there is plenty of evidence which suggests that these sabres are indeed Spanish colonial weapons, but as Jim keep pointing out, Spain had a lot of colonies.
I am uploading the auction pictures here for future reference.
Thank you Jeff, Jim and Wolf,
Teodor

[Marc]

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Marc

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?
Thank you very much for confirming that the Barcelona Miliatry Museum is closed, so that I can plan my vacation properly.
Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

Teodor, the term ´colonial´seems to be very laxus. The greek and cartaghinean colonies were only cities established as commercial settlements. They were nearer from the metropili than the balkans from Istambul, or at least there were similar distances. The idea of settlements established by a conqueror in other continent, is similar, since Africa and the Balkans are not in the same continent as the Ottoman metropoli. But in all case, I was not intending a precise comparison, it was just a reference.

Maybe I passed without looking the dimensions of those sabres. In some way the description from Ariel evoked to me, in my quick reading, a cavalry-like image, but it was my mistake. This is the reason why I feel important to know the exact measures of the weapons exposed in this forum, and also the weight, point of balance, thickness, geometry of the blade, etc.

In relation with the sabre: my feeling is that those sabre were made, among others, with european blades, and with the references form the spanish and french museums, I am inclined to think that the best hypothesis, in view of the available evidences, is that those sabres were more probably north african. I can add no more, since all the references I can find in internet point in this direction. I have not bibliography over the subject, but as soon I have more information I will writte to you.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Marc]

Originally Posted by TVV

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?

Uh.... no. Not really. Nothing really worth going out of your way just for the weapons themselves. To be sincere, Barcelona has a lot of unique and wonderful places to visit, including a lot of excellent museums. My reccomendation is that you enjoy your visit and wait to go elsewhere (Madrid, for example) to see remarkable arms and armour collections (specially european).

On the other hand, aside from the most usual touristic routes, if you happen to have some spare time, you might want to try the Ethnological Museum or even the the Maritime Museum , out of curiosity, if you like the subject (a 1:1 scale reproduction of a 16th c. galley, anyone? ).

[TVV]

Another example with interesting inscriptions in Spanish ended on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

On one side the inscription is "Para Los Valientes ____enos", as opposed to "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos" on one of mine. On the other is what looks like a regimental marking - can someone read and decipher it? If this sword can be ascribed to a military unit, then that would likely provide a conclusive answer on who used these interesting swords. In any case, the Berber attribution seems more and more unlikely.

I am attaching some pictures from the auction.

Regards,
Teodor

[carlos]

I have seen another sword like this, with the words Para Los valientes Cibaenos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cibao
and on the other II HYD VT IA PTO PLATA. This is the link, with this PC I can,t copy the pictures, sorry.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEDWX%3AIT
best regards
carlos