On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2009, 06:02 AM

Hi Dmitry,
Actually I have been researching Spanish colonial for many years, and sometimes it seems it has taken forever to finally break through with some of these weapons which remain anomalies in collections.

One of these shellguard espadas was among holdings of Imperial Auctions in 2008 I believe. My notes show that the blade was inscribed with the Imperial monogram and crest of Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (r.1831-1889). The hilt with the nock (cf. nimcha grip) the striated shellguard, and inner langet are virtually identical.

Years ago I was researching one of the strange munitions or blacksmith grade swords with exaggerated finger stalls, a reversed nock in the grip, which was cast brass, and an added espada ancha style shellguard and knuckleguard similar to this style but much smaller. I had been informed it had been found in Monterrey, Mexico, but found little to substantiate. Later examples were seen, also shown as Mexican, but in discussions with Pierce Chamberlain, he insisted these were from Cuba. Years later he called me and sent me photos of one from Spanish American war brought back from Cuba.

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.
While the first example shown has a coat of arms on the shell, another not in the article, but identical otherwise, has the same striations on its shellguard seen on these 'Brazilian' examples.

Another espada I researched, and looking for photos, has a shellguard with the same striations, but the guard is flat and perpandicular to blade, and the identical inner langet. The overall guard appears more in line with the espada ancha developed from early hangers, and the sword was represented as from the eastern Spanish colonies (Florida possibly Cuba), believed of probably late 18th century.

It seems that the striated patterns on these Spanish colonial shellguards occur from latter 18th, well into the 19th on these various forms of espada used in various ports of call on the Spanish Main of this period.
As always, more research to be done, but these are the results of well over twenty years done so far.

All best regards,
Jim

Dmitry · 19th August 2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.

Jim, I am still not sold on the Brazilian attribution; some photos would be nice to see. I've read Juan Calvo's article on the Guanabacoa and other machetes, and saw, but was too slow to buy, a wonderful example at a gun show a couple of years back. It was of similar construction as the ones in Calvo's article, except the hilt was done in sterling silver with mother of pearland gold incrustations. It was a really high end piece.

Here are the photos of the one I have in my collection. Even though, like I said, it's not my area of collecting, this particular piece just oozes Colonial Latn America, and is very expressive, so it's on my wall for now. I have not been successful in finding anything on the blade-maker Breffit in my literature. Could be an Englishman who set up shop in Havana [or Rio, for that matter].

Jim McDougall · 20th August 2009, 12:27 AM

Hi Dmitry,
I agree on specifying Brazil for the type overall based on one example with sound provenance, but I think it must be accepted that these striated shellguards are of Spanish attribution in locations included in its trade centers in the Caribbean, Florida, Central America and South America. I will see if I can get the photos of the Brazilian example to post.

Thanks for the photos of yours, one of the nicer examples I've seen, great motif. The name of the maker on mine was 'Isaac' I think, cant recall now but definitely British and was not found in British registers either. These guys may well have been importers of blades in these areas?

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 20th August 2009, 11:44 PM

Back to the topic of the mystery sabres, this one finished today on eBay. Hoepfully the buyer is someone from this forum:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

Rick · 21st August 2009, 12:18 AM

The scabbard appears to be very un-Spanish IMHO .

I can't think of a use for the terminal end ;it seems more tribally oriented .

Jim McDougall · 21st August 2009, 04:15 AM

The scabbard on these are very unusual, and the perpandicular projection is very much like the shotel scabbards seen in Spring. I am unclear on the purpose of the projection, and this seems atypical for anything in the Moroccan regions of North Africa, but the scabbard style seems consistant.

I have seen the 'South Seas'; Indonesian and Caribbean suggestions along with the standing 'Berber' attribution, which remains unsubstantiated.
As I have mentioned many times over the years, I have yet to see these represented in any collective material on weapons of Morocco and North Africa...it is as if they came out of nowhere!

Why the 'Ethiopian' (?) style scabbard, what is the upright extension at the tip for, why are the blades always profiled in this manner, what is the stylized 'flyssa'(?) type grip supposed to represent.

In my opinion, the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th century, and its trade routes that continued through the independence of Mexico from Spain, The Mexican-American War, and into the period of the Spanish American War, account for a myriad of the mysterious weapons that have been appearing in collections in recent times. Many of these are 'bringbacks' from the Spanish American War.
The 'Main' was prevalent in early 19th century in the Caribbean, Florida, Cuba, Mexico's gulf ports, Central America and South America....the outermost extension, the Philippines. To the East, the connections to Spain and its North African colonies are of course part of this vast network.

Most of these unusual weapons I have seen seem to have either Mexican provenance as far as appearing in groups of these weapons, or as items stated with Cuban or South American provenance.
I have often considered that it would be most tempting to suggest this unusual profile to the tip of these British or European military blades reminds me of the tip of the kampilan, free association at best, but still, seems plausible.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 21st August 2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Jim McDougall · 21st August 2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Whoa! Jeff you are amazing!!! Thats gotta be it, fits perfect as far as I can see. Never even thought of that, so once again the Spanish colonial presence is suggested.

All the best,
Jim

Wodimi · 22nd August 2009, 01:15 AM

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

TVV · 22nd August 2009, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Jeff,
I thought I saw the same thing, as there seems to be an O before the M, which fits nicely with the motto. Without having the sword at hand, I can only agree that this is most likely traces from the popular Spanish motto.
By now, there is plenty of evidence which suggests that these sabres are indeed Spanish colonial weapons, but as Jim keep pointing out, Spain had a lot of colonies.
I am uploading the auction pictures here for future reference.
Thank you Jeff, Jim and Wolf,
Teodor

Marc · 15th September 2009, 10:58 AM

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

TVV · 15th September 2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?
Thank you very much for confirming that the Barcelona Miliatry Museum is closed, so that I can plan my vacation properly.
Best regards,
Teodor

19th August 2009, 06:02 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Dmitry, Actually I have been researching Spanish colonial for many years, and sometimes it seems it has taken forever to finally break through with some of these weapons which remain anomalies in collections. One of these shellguard espadas was among holdings of Imperial Auctions in 2008 I believe. My notes show that the blade was inscribed with the Imperial monogram and crest of Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (r.1831-1889). The hilt with the nock (cf. nimcha grip) the striated shellguard, and inner langet are virtually identical. Years ago I was researching one of the strange munitions or blacksmith grade swords with exaggerated finger stalls, a reversed nock in the grip, which was cast brass, and an added espada ancha style shellguard and knuckleguard similar to this style but much smaller. I had been informed it had been found in Monterrey, Mexico, but found little to substantiate. Later examples were seen, also shown as Mexican, but in discussions with Pierce Chamberlain, he insisted these were from Cuba. Years later he called me and sent me photos of one from Spanish American war brought back from Cuba. An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall. While the first example shown has a coat of arms on the shell, another not in the article, but identical otherwise, has the same striations on its shellguard seen on these 'Brazilian' examples. Another espada I researched, and looking for photos, has a shellguard with the same striations, but the guard is flat and perpandicular to blade, and the identical inner langet. The overall guard appears more in line with the espada ancha developed from early hangers, and the sword was represented as from the eastern Spanish colonies (Florida possibly Cuba), believed of probably late 18th century. It seems that the striated patterns on these Spanish colonial shellguards occur from latter 18th, well into the 19th on these various forms of espada used in various ports of call on the Spanish Main of this period. As always, more research to be done, but these are the results of well over twenty years done so far. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th August 2009 at 06:15 AM.

20th August 2009, 12:27 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Dmitry, I agree on specifying Brazil for the type overall based on one example with sound provenance, but I think it must be accepted that these striated shellguards are of Spanish attribution in locations included in its trade centers in the Caribbean, Florida, Central America and South America. I will see if I can get the photos of the Brazilian example to post. Thanks for the photos of yours, one of the nicer examples I've seen, great motif. The name of the maker on mine was 'Isaac' I think, cant recall now but definitely British and was not found in British registers either. These guys may well have been importers of blades in these areas? All best regards, Jim

20th August 2009, 11:44 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Back to the topic of the mystery sabres, this one finished today on eBay. Hoepfully the buyer is someone from this forum: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it? Regards, Teodor

21st August 2009, 12:18 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	The scabbard appears to be very un-Spanish IMHO . I can't think of a use for the terminal end ;it seems more tribally oriented .

21st August 2009, 04:15 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The scabbard on these are very unusual, and the perpandicular projection is very much like the shotel scabbards seen in Spring. I am unclear on the purpose of the projection, and this seems atypical for anything in the Moroccan regions of North Africa, but the scabbard style seems consistant. I have seen the 'South Seas'; Indonesian and Caribbean suggestions along with the standing 'Berber' attribution, which remains unsubstantiated. As I have mentioned many times over the years, I have yet to see these represented in any collective material on weapons of Morocco and North Africa...it is as if they came out of nowhere! Why the 'Ethiopian' (?) style scabbard, what is the upright extension at the tip for, why are the blades always profiled in this manner, what is the stylized 'flyssa'(?) type grip supposed to represent. In my opinion, the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th century, and its trade routes that continued through the independence of Mexico from Spain, The Mexican-American War, and into the period of the Spanish American War, account for a myriad of the mysterious weapons that have been appearing in collections in recent times. Many of these are 'bringbacks' from the Spanish American War. The 'Main' was prevalent in early 19th century in the Caribbean, Florida, Cuba, Mexico's gulf ports, Central America and South America....the outermost extension, the Philippines. To the East, the connections to Spain and its North African colonies are of course part of this vast network. Most of these unusual weapons I have seen seem to have either Mexican provenance as far as appearing in groups of these weapons, or as items stated with Cuban or South American provenance. I have often considered that it would be most tempting to suggest this unusual profile to the tip of these British or European military blades reminds me of the tip of the kampilan, free association at best, but still, seems plausible. Best regards, Jim

22nd August 2009, 01:15 AM	#9
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber". The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco. Wolf www.spearcollector.com

15th September 2009, 10:58 AM	#11
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, I confirmed it. Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location. In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.