On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

pallas · 18th August 2009, 09:59 PM

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

pallas · 18th August 2009, 10:53 PM

yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it

That was the exact location on my example.

Dmitry · 19th August 2009, 01:05 AM

Jim, what is the substantiation of attributing these pieces to Brazil?
{quote}

Dmitry,
I'll have to get out my notes, but there were some Spanish text articles as well as one of these sold with Imperial Auctions, identified and with Brazilian inscriptions on blade. I believe discussions with Juan Perez (?) as well...during espada ancha research when suggestions were made to a South American cousin to the northern frontier examples.

Do you have an interest in these? If you have other information I would really be interested to know, in the meantime I'll look into notes here.

all the best,
Jim

sorry I hit edit instead of respond.

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2009, 06:02 AM

Hi Dmitry,
Actually I have been researching Spanish colonial for many years, and sometimes it seems it has taken forever to finally break through with some of these weapons which remain anomalies in collections.

One of these shellguard espadas was among holdings of Imperial Auctions in 2008 I believe. My notes show that the blade was inscribed with the Imperial monogram and crest of Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (r.1831-1889). The hilt with the nock (cf. nimcha grip) the striated shellguard, and inner langet are virtually identical.

Years ago I was researching one of the strange munitions or blacksmith grade swords with exaggerated finger stalls, a reversed nock in the grip, which was cast brass, and an added espada ancha style shellguard and knuckleguard similar to this style but much smaller. I had been informed it had been found in Monterrey, Mexico, but found little to substantiate. Later examples were seen, also shown as Mexican, but in discussions with Pierce Chamberlain, he insisted these were from Cuba. Years later he called me and sent me photos of one from Spanish American war brought back from Cuba.

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.
While the first example shown has a coat of arms on the shell, another not in the article, but identical otherwise, has the same striations on its shellguard seen on these 'Brazilian' examples.

Another espada I researched, and looking for photos, has a shellguard with the same striations, but the guard is flat and perpandicular to blade, and the identical inner langet. The overall guard appears more in line with the espada ancha developed from early hangers, and the sword was represented as from the eastern Spanish colonies (Florida possibly Cuba), believed of probably late 18th century.

It seems that the striated patterns on these Spanish colonial shellguards occur from latter 18th, well into the 19th on these various forms of espada used in various ports of call on the Spanish Main of this period.
As always, more research to be done, but these are the results of well over twenty years done so far.

All best regards,
Jim

Dmitry · 19th August 2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.

Jim, I am still not sold on the Brazilian attribution; some photos would be nice to see. I've read Juan Calvo's article on the Guanabacoa and other machetes, and saw, but was too slow to buy, a wonderful example at a gun show a couple of years back. It was of similar construction as the ones in Calvo's article, except the hilt was done in sterling silver with mother of pearland gold incrustations. It was a really high end piece.

Here are the photos of the one I have in my collection. Even though, like I said, it's not my area of collecting, this particular piece just oozes Colonial Latn America, and is very expressive, so it's on my wall for now. I have not been successful in finding anything on the blade-maker Breffit in my literature. Could be an Englishman who set up shop in Havana [or Rio, for that matter].

19th August 2009, 01:05 AM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Jim, what is the substantiation of attributing these pieces to Brazil? {quote} Dmitry, I'll have to get out my notes, but there were some Spanish text articles as well as one of these sold with Imperial Auctions, identified and with Brazilian inscriptions on blade. I believe discussions with Juan Perez (?) as well...during espada ancha research when suggestions were made to a South American cousin to the northern frontier examples. Do you have an interest in these? If you have other information I would really be interested to know, in the meantime I'll look into notes here. all the best, Jim sorry I hit edit instead of respond. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th August 2009 at 06:26 AM.

19th August 2009, 06:02 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Dmitry, Actually I have been researching Spanish colonial for many years, and sometimes it seems it has taken forever to finally break through with some of these weapons which remain anomalies in collections. One of these shellguard espadas was among holdings of Imperial Auctions in 2008 I believe. My notes show that the blade was inscribed with the Imperial monogram and crest of Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (r.1831-1889). The hilt with the nock (cf. nimcha grip) the striated shellguard, and inner langet are virtually identical. Years ago I was researching one of the strange munitions or blacksmith grade swords with exaggerated finger stalls, a reversed nock in the grip, which was cast brass, and an added espada ancha style shellguard and knuckleguard similar to this style but much smaller. I had been informed it had been found in Monterrey, Mexico, but found little to substantiate. Later examples were seen, also shown as Mexican, but in discussions with Pierce Chamberlain, he insisted these were from Cuba. Years later he called me and sent me photos of one from Spanish American war brought back from Cuba. An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall. While the first example shown has a coat of arms on the shell, another not in the article, but identical otherwise, has the same striations on its shellguard seen on these 'Brazilian' examples. Another espada I researched, and looking for photos, has a shellguard with the same striations, but the guard is flat and perpandicular to blade, and the identical inner langet. The overall guard appears more in line with the espada ancha developed from early hangers, and the sword was represented as from the eastern Spanish colonies (Florida possibly Cuba), believed of probably late 18th century. It seems that the striated patterns on these Spanish colonial shellguards occur from latter 18th, well into the 19th on these various forms of espada used in various ports of call on the Spanish Main of this period. As always, more research to be done, but these are the results of well over twenty years done so far. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th August 2009 at 06:15 AM.

18th August 2009, 09:59 PM	#1
pallas Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 53	i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

18th August 2009, 10:53 PM	#4
pallas Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 53	yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it