On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm always wary of assigning too much import to what anonymous museum curators put together in a given exhibit. Too often I think someone took a bunch of things they thought would look good together and put them all in a case...

Very well said Andrew!!
I have seen groupings of weapons lumped together completely incongruently by presumably responsible authorities, resulting in many of the unfortunate attributions that have plagued arms scholars for years. Case in point, the Calvert catalog "Spanish Arms and Armour" which perputuates these types of errors in a number of instances, especially the curious 'manople'.
Burton, in his "Book of the Sword" carries forth errors of Auguste Demmin (1877) and finally noted by Buttin in his work later published (1933).

The trophies/souveniers of one generation, often become grouped in estate sales by unknowledgable individuals and presumption, and classifications and provenance hopelessly lost. I have seen donations to European museums that piled African and even Asian weapons together, mostly in efforts at aesthetic or unusual groupings, leading more to identification travesties.

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

I don't have this sword any more, as I have traded it for another piece just a few days ago, but the hilt is quite like the one on the top photo.
I also have another one, also quite similar in style, which I am very fond of, even though this is not my bag.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I don't have this sword any more, as I have traded it for another piece just a few days ago, but the hilt is quite like the one on the top photo.
I also have another one, also quite similar in style, which I am very fond of, even though this is not my bag.

Thank you Dmitry, great photos. As indicated in my earlier post these have been determined to be Brazilian from probably earlier part of 19th century. I have one of these which has a British blade of about this period, again leaning toward the entrance of these British blades onto Spanish trade sphere. It seems earlier research also has suggested a number of these unusual weapons are included in the relatively obscure armouries of these parts of the America's and Caribbean.

I have always hoped for North Africa too Teodor, but remain somewhat appeased by the fact that the trade connections between the Spanish colonies in North Africa and the America's are the denominator that seems to link these unusual weapons.

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by pallas

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by pallas

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by pallas

yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it

That was the exact location on my example.