Tulwar?

[Michael Blalock]

I accidently bid on this Indian sword (200370412543) ,when I thought I was bidding on this Kattara (200370413578)). Same seller, similar photo. Unfortunately, I lost on the Kattara but won on the Indian sword. This is not my area of collecting. Is this a Tulwar that has lost it's pommel?

[Emanuel]

Nice tulwar, Michael.
It has indeed lost its disk pommel, and the rosette "washer". I noticed a seller from India selling tulwar handles cheaply. Perhaps you could scavenge the missing parts.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Atlantia]

LOL, bloody hell Michael! Wish I could accidentally spend nearly $500 on a sword and be so calm about it!
As for the sword itself, I think its actually nicer than the one you wanted

Wouldn't worry too much about the missing handle parts, it looks like the hilt is carved so it wouldn't be too much of a problem to contact some of the websites in India selling newly made weapons and get a bespoke replacement.
Worth the effort as its only going to be a fraction of what the sword's already cost you, and you can use the handle to match the design perfectly.

Nice sword btw, wonder what the steel will be?

Regards
Gene

[Emanuel]

Monitor was dark, didn't realize the handle was carved. Makes it even nicer.
Forum member Sandeep Singh is a koftgari artist if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps he can facilitate a replacement.

Do you have additional pictures?

[KuKulzA28]

I've no doubt Sandeep Singh could do a great job on it.
He's got my recommendation.

Excuse a novice's question, but what exactly sets a tulwar apart from a tegha? This sword's blade seems pretty broad, like a tegha's, and doesn't taper to as thin a point at the end... does it have to do with the handle?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Michael, do you have close ups of the tulwar hilt and the place where the disc was?

If it looks like an old remove of the disc I would leave it as it is. You sometimes see hilts like this, but not very often. Tirri shows one, and I have heard of two others taken near the Khyber pass, after the last British cavalry attack around 1930.

[Michael Blalock]

I don't have it yet. I will post when I do.

[Emanuel]

KuKulZa, a tegha blade is often as wide as the guard, almost reaching the finials of the quillons.
There is no rule for this, it's more to do with the general proportions of the thing, blade width to hilt proportions. Rule of thumb I use - tulwar blades are narrower than the disk pommel, while tegha blades are wider than the disk.

Compare below, tegha from OA.

[sandeepsingh]

Nice Tegha

Thanks Emanuel and KuKulzA28 for the recommodation !

Sandeep

[Michael Blalock]

I took some photos of this Tulwar. My camera is only working in wide angle mode so the focus is poor in close-ups.
The hilt not really that nice, cast brass with a cast or cut in pattern. Is this a european blade. I have seen the stamped makers mark elsewhere. It looks like a bee or fly to me. Maybe on this site as some time.
I think I can see a pattern in the steel but I am not sure, though the pictures don't show as much as the naked eye. If it's european there this would not be wootz? I tried some nitric acid, which did not seem to bring any more out. Do I have to polish the steel to see the pattern better? Should I use the 3M wet/dry paper? Sand with oil, or dry sand?

I assume the hilt is set in pitch and if I heat it up the blade should pull out?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I like the blade, I don't think its European, well, Western European anyway.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Neither do I, I agree with Norman. I think the blade is Indian, and I have seen marks on Indian blades – not quite like the one shown, but alike.

[Atlantia]

Looks nice, I agree the blade looks Indian. Might be wootz, definately replace the missing handle elements! Nice project for the winter, make them yourself!
'3M' Silicon carbide paper, and spit! 1000-1500 on a soft wood block. If you even really need to repolish? Bath of concentrated lemon juice should show patterns if there are any, then repolish is you want. Handle resins should soften with heat, go easy so you don't catch it onfire or add colour to the silver plate.

[Jim McDougall]

As Jens has noted, there are tulwars which were actually produced without the disc pommel, and and I once handled one of these captured in a British cavalry action on plains near the Khyber c.1930. It is my perception that many Afghans were of much larger stature than many of the ethnic groups in India, and had distinctly larger hands. We have had many discussions regarding the typically smaller hilt configurations on many Indian swords to accomodate this , and I'm certain that disparate contentions remain.
Regardless, with discussions noting certain impairments in use of the Indo-Persian hilt tulwar if used in other than typically applied technique, it seemed possible to me that open hilted tulwars might have been produced in the north for Afghan use.
This is of course my opinion based on the example seen, and the Tirri examples, which interestingly are also shown as having 'lost' thier pommel discs. Without close examination it is hard to say that these had lost them.

With this tulwar shown, it appears to be of mid to perhaps latter 19th century with a hilt referred to by Pant as Udaipuri (Rajasthan) and of course, the large disc pommel is missing. The peaks mid grip, extended and almost rectangular langet without usual flueret and discoid quillon terminals are characteristic, as is the recurved knuckle bow.

The blade indeed appears Indian, and the interesting stamped mark shows the continued use of Indian bladesmiths of early European markings. This one is unusual though known to have often appeared with the familiar 'sickle' marks (aka eyelashes etc) associated with Genoan blades in the 16th-18th century, and widely copied by many European centers.

The marking itself closely resembles one shown in Wallace Collection (p.361, A710) north Italian mid 16th century and as noted often found with sickle marks, which are almost invariably found on Afghan paluoars, and certainly well known in India's northern blade making centers from 18th century onward. These markings are of the family of north Italian markings known as 'twig marks' usually with peaks top and bottom and on each side.

Best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Jens has noted, there are tulwars which were actually produced without the disc pommel, and and I once handled one of these captured in a British cavalry action on plains near the Khyber c.1930. It is my perception that many Afghans were of much larger stature than many of the ethnic groups in India, and had distinctly larger hands. We have had many discussions regarding the typically smaller hilt configurations on many Indian swords to accomodate this , and I'm certain that disparate contentions remain.
Regardless, with discussions noting certain impairments in use of the Indo-Persian hilt tulwar if used in other than typically applied technique, it seemed possible to me that open hilted tulwars might have been produced in the north for Afghan use.
This is of course my opinion based on the example seen, and the Tirri examples, which interestingly are also shown as having 'lost' thier pommel discs. Without close examination it is hard to say that these had lost them.

With this tulwar shown, it appears to be of mid to perhaps latter 19th century with a hilt referred to by Pant as Udaipuri (Rajasthan) and of course, the large disc pommel is missing. The peaks mid grip, extended and almost rectangular langet without usual flueret and discoid quillon terminals are characteristic, as is the recurved knuckle bow.

The blade indeed appears Indian, and the interesting stamped mark shows the continued use of Indian bladesmiths of early European markings. This one is unusual though known to have often appeared with the familiar 'sickle' marks (aka eyelashes etc) associated with Genoan blades in the 16th-18th century, and widely copied by many European centers.

The marking itself closely resembles one shown in Wallace Collection (p.361, A710) north Italian mid 16th century and as noted often found with sickle marks, which are almost invariably found on Afghan paluoars, and certainly well known in India's northern blade making centers from 18th century onward. These markings are of the family of north Italian markings known as 'twig marks' usually with peaks top and bottom and on each side.

Best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Nice to see this fine thread but I cannot think why it discontinued since there was a great theme and much work to add... I suppose it just got forgotten about... well my question is... Is this not the Peter Cull mark or a copy of it? The Fly.

If so it may have a bearing on a current thread.

Nontheless I really just wanted to give this one a well earned bump because right at the first thread there is a stunning example of an original form of scabbard to the Omani Battle Sword.. The Omani Sayf. (Sayf Yamaani.)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.