Need your help on ID of this chainmail hauberk.

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2009, 10:31 PM

Kronckew, we crossed posts. Absolutely excellent and informative post describing construction and great photos. Really like the comparison of the kevlar and the mail also.
Thank you for addressing my question on servicing of mail and the use of the sand and oil is interesting, and really gives an interesting perspective on this topic.

I found some interesting additional information that concerns much earlier detail on European mail, but might add some insight regardless, in 'Warfare in the Middle Ages", Richard Humble, 1989, p.129-130). Here the author notes that the infection that would be caused by rusty mail fragments and sweaty undergarments would create a septic situation with even wounds which would not normally have proven fatal. He discusses the extraction of a bolt from "...amid a vicious tangle of fractured mail rings which must have created a horrific wound".
Also noted was that blunt trauma from direct blows, even when mail remained intact often led to massive and disabling bruising, as the mail still had a certain amount of 'give' that the undergarment could not entirely absorb.

Other discussions we have had some time ago pertained to the effects of heat in the wearing of armour as well, and resulted in some pretty interesting perspective.

Dmitry, I hope you dont mind the digression into the historical aspects here, as it seemed a great opportunity to learn more about mail, as we work at determining more on te identification of your example.

All best regards,
Jim

Gene, just saw your post....I really only just saw that item on galvanized mail, so would be interested to learn more as well on it. Interesting notes on oil applied during manufacture. I wonder if annealing and applying oil while working the metal rings would have added some minimal protection ?

kronckew · 29th July 2009, 10:43 PM

the romans of course, having conquered britain, had access to tin. it was apparently used extensively to tin plate steel and bronze, as well as orichalcum (brass) used in armour, to prevent rust.

The sestertius, a coin worth four asses and dupondius, worth two asses were both struck in orichalcum brass. The as was about the same size as the dupondius but was struck in more or less pure copper, which was much redder than the brass when newly minted.

It is surprising to many modern students of history to find out that the Greeks and Romans could control very precisely the percentage of each different metal that went into their alloys. The fineness or proportion of precious metal in an alloy was most important in commerce and archaeological research has shown that the Romans could control the finess of gold in their coins and ingots to within one percent. This degree of control not only allowed the Romans to closely guard the purity of their gold and silver coins but allowed them to cheat accurately as well!

An alloy of copper and zinc called orichalcum was used a great deal by the Romans. This consisted of eighty percent copper and twenty percent zinc, with small amounts of lead, tin, and other metals and would be called yellow brass today. [1]

p.s. - atlantia, it was not cleaned with wire wool, but the doggies have contributed a lot of hair to the atmosphere here. everything has dog hair on it to some extent.

one adapts...

p.p.s. - chain mail consists of a message that attempts to induce the recipient to make a number of copies of the message and then pass them on to as many recipients as possible

[1] - found on the interweb....

Atlantia · 29th July 2009, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gene, just saw your post....I really only just saw that item on galvanized mail, so would be interested to learn more as well on it. Interesting notes on oil applied during manufacture. I wonder if annealing and applying oil while working the metal rings would have added some minimal protection ?

Hi mate, Indeed yes, cherry hot steel into oil leaves a slightly flexible coating of oil and carbon. perrrfek!

here are some mail samples.
(sadly none are medieval)

Firstly, dating to early 20thC mail, appears to have been hand assembled, but produced from commercialy made 'wire' links. Note the clean cut edges and completely regular sizes each link is 8mm across.

Second Indian mail made from hand made galvanised wire links, each link is approximately 8mm, note the visible irregularities:

third, Indian mail, some age, hand made from wire links, some variation but quite good quality. approx 10mm links, some heat colouring and signs of oil browning.

Lastly, modern stainless steel welded chainmail. State of the art. Larger link (7mm)

Dmitry · 30th July 2009, 02:56 PM

Wow! Thanks for all the input, gentlemen!
I should've set the email notification of replies.
Will snap some macro photos of the linkage tonight!

Dmitry · 9th August 2009, 02:23 AM

29th July 2009, 10:43 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	the romans of course, having conquered britain, had access to tin. it was apparently used extensively to tin plate steel and bronze, as well as orichalcum (brass) used in armour, to prevent rust. The sestertius, a coin worth four asses and dupondius, worth two asses were both struck in orichalcum brass. The as was about the same size as the dupondius but was struck in more or less pure copper, which was much redder than the brass when newly minted. It is surprising to many modern students of history to find out that the Greeks and Romans could control very precisely the percentage of each different metal that went into their alloys. The fineness or proportion of precious metal in an alloy was most important in commerce and archaeological research has shown that the Romans could control the finess of gold in their coins and ingots to within one percent. This degree of control not only allowed the Romans to closely guard the purity of their gold and silver coins but allowed them to cheat accurately as well! An alloy of copper and zinc called orichalcum was used a great deal by the Romans. This consisted of eighty percent copper and twenty percent zinc, with small amounts of lead, tin, and other metals and would be called yellow brass today. [1] p.s. - atlantia, it was not cleaned with wire wool, but the doggies have contributed a lot of hair to the atmosphere here. everything has dog hair on it to some extent. one adapts... p.p.s. - chain mail consists of a message that attempts to induce the recipient to make a number of copies of the message and then pass them on to as many recipients as possible [1] - found on the interweb.... Last edited by kronckew; 29th July 2009 at 11:09 PM.

29th July 2009, 10:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	Kronckew, we crossed posts. Absolutely excellent and informative post describing construction and great photos. Really like the comparison of the kevlar and the mail also. Thank you for addressing my question on servicing of mail and the use of the sand and oil is interesting, and really gives an interesting perspective on this topic. I found some interesting additional information that concerns much earlier detail on European mail, but might add some insight regardless, in 'Warfare in the Middle Ages", Richard Humble, 1989, p.129-130). Here the author notes that the infection that would be caused by rusty mail fragments and sweaty undergarments would create a septic situation with even wounds which would not normally have proven fatal. He discusses the extraction of a bolt from "...amid a vicious tangle of fractured mail rings which must have created a horrific wound". Also noted was that blunt trauma from direct blows, even when mail remained intact often led to massive and disabling bruising, as the mail still had a certain amount of 'give' that the undergarment could not entirely absorb. Other discussions we have had some time ago pertained to the effects of heat in the wearing of armour as well, and resulted in some pretty interesting perspective. Dmitry, I hope you dont mind the digression into the historical aspects here, as it seemed a great opportunity to learn more about mail, as we work at determining more on te identification of your example. All best regards, Jim Gene, just saw your post....I really only just saw that item on galvanized mail, so would be interested to learn more as well on it. Interesting notes on oil applied during manufacture. I wonder if annealing and applying oil while working the metal rings would have added some minimal protection ?

30th July 2009, 02:56 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Wow! Thanks for all the input, gentlemen! I should've set the email notification of replies. Will snap some macro photos of the linkage tonight!

9th August 2009, 02:23 AM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607